Having gotten back into the hobby a few months ago, I had to “re-learn” all I had remembered from nearly 30 years ago - and I bough the wrong turnouts.
For some reason I thought that insulated made sense, but I have not been able to figure out how to wire them and want to just get “plain old” switches.
Are electrofrog turnouts what I am wanting and will they work? I do not have the time or patience for welding,wiring etc with the other kind… I just want them to work!
Thanks,
Brian
They BOTH work the same with MODIFICATION… but
Electrofrogs are supposed to activate (power) ony the selected route. Insulfrogs have all routes with the same polarity… but
Insulated (non polarized) Insulfrog turnouts are a must for DCC.
.
Why are insulfrogs a must for DCC, I was told by 2 different, and I consider very knowledgeable hobby shop owners that electrofrog were the ones I wanted for a DCC layout. I haven’t arrived at the point of track laying yet, but I have purchased 28 of the new Peco Streamline electrofrog switches. Are they wrong, do you know something they don’t that you could let me in on before I take the step of trying to install them. Help would be greatly appreciated.
Brian,
Peco turnouts are not “Plain Old Switches” like Atlas.
What problem are you having? I 'll bet you have some dead spots, Right?
I have been using Insulfrog’s for 20 years and mine are all Power Routing. I’ll bet yours are power routing as well. This means that the power will only go to the direction the turnout is thrown.
This is handy for parking an engine on a spur, but it can cause problems on a double ended siding or double track area. It is pretty well mandatory that you place your feeder wires on the “points” side of the turnout so that power is always routed down the track.
Here is an example of a small layout showing where you must pt the feeders. Note that the feeders always feed into the “points” end of the turnout.
In this case you can see how each feeder location feeds power to the points end of two different turnouts. This way there will always be power at every part of the layout.
Let me know if this fixes your problem.
I appreciate the comments and ideas… I think I need to find someone locally that can show me what it is I am not able to figure out… The photo helps, but I still do not have any idea what anyone is talking about.
I have 17 of them, 16 still in the package I will just return.
Thanks
And, if you think I am having problems with something that should be as easy as wiring a turnout… then the whole “DCC” thing is an even bigger mystery…
30 years ago is was fun building a layout… now it seems to be more of a challenge than it is fun…
What problem are you having with these turnouts?
What are you trying to do with the Turnout that makes you have problems?
Are you trying to use Walther’s Code 83 DCC Friendly turnouts or the Peco ones?
Consider a loop of track. If you didnt isolate the frog, the points will create a short. Either a plastic frog, insulated frog or gaps cut around the frog will do the job of protecting the points.
Are you hand throwing the turnouts? Or using a machine to throw it for you?
Check out my post here where I discuss DCC friendly turnouts and which is best on a DCC layout, live frog or dead frog turnouts?
Briefly, dead frog turnouts (‘insulfrog’) will have less chance of a short, and fewer shorts are preferred on a DCC layout so you don’t shut down big sections of the layout.
However, not all equipment can handle dead spots in the track so you may need to use live frog turnouts (‘electrofrog’) even though they are more work to install and will be more likely to get a short.
You can read all about it at the link above, to see the full explanation and reasoning for why, in my experience, insulfrog (dead frog) turnouts are preferred on a DCC layout.
With insulfrogs, there’s no wiring. I just install them and solder the rail joiners on the points end and I’m done. With electrofrogs, the frog gets power from contacts tied to the points, and you need to install separate contacts since the point contacts in the Peco turnout won’t last.
In most cases, you need to install insulated rail joiners in the two rails just past the frog on an electrofrog turnout to avoid shorts (this is not needed on an insulfrog). Picking up a copy of Kalmbach’s Basic Wiring for Model Railroaders will be a good investment if turnout wiring is giving you problems.
Peco code 83, hand throwing and they only are “live” in the “straight” or main position.
I guess that I need a basic education in wiring for starts, and I do have a copy of the Kalmbach book…
Are the Walthers code 83 DCC “friendly” turnouts any good? They sound what I am looking for…
What is the difference in hand throwing vs machine throwing? I cant imagine there would be one.
Basically, the Peco turnouts work, or remain “live” in one position only.
Thanks for the reply’s !
I’ve tried electro-frog turnouts that were marked as ‘DCC friendly’ with a DCC layout and found them extremely lacking, especially with cars with metal wheels. I had many repeated shorts on the frogs with no derailments involved. I’ve gone to all insul-frog turnouts and haven’t had any more shorting problems.
Brian, your Insulfrog turnouts are “Power Routing” or “Route Selective”. That is why they are dead when you select the diverging route.
To fix the problem you just have to have your feeder in a different location. Or add more feeders.
If this seems like too much work, then you could buy Atlas and you would have an “All Powered” or “All Live” turnout like you used to use.
But you should give the Peco Insulfrog a chance. They are great turnouts and if you ever decide to go to DCC, they are already very DCC compatible.
What you just said makes sense to me… I guess I just dont understand why I will need so many feeder lines.
I mean, they serve a purpose - but why cant the entire line be “all live”?
As far as DCC goes - if I cant figure out something as simple as basic wiring… I doubt I will ever understand (whatever) DCC is… by then it will probably be replaced with something even more complex.
Maybe I just need to stick with the old wind ups
LOL
Brian:
Actually, it’s a fairly common misconception that DCC is more complex than DC wiring–in actuality it’s easier, e.g. you don’t have to put in gaps in order to separate different subpower districts/sidings, as all the mains, yards, sides, etc. can be powered all of the time, since the locos are individually controlled, and not just controlled by the track power. Other sources to consider: Andy Sperandeo’s book(by Kalmach) on wiring, and www.wiriingfordcc.com.
Jim
Brian:
Don’t get frustrated. You’ll get the hang of it! Many of the rest of us learned what we know about electricity from model railroading rather than understanding electricity first.
Forget DCC for now. Get some simple booklets on how to wire for beginners or how to build a model railroad for beginners. There are always a few in most any hobby shop or RR flea markets. If you can understand how water flows thru a pipe you can understand enough of electricity to wire a model railroad. The diagrams in the booklets will make things clearer than many thousand of words.
Remember, its supposed to be fun!
Mike
If your frogs are gapped by black or grey plastic spacers, and if there are no small wire connectors running between the points rails and the two frog rails in grooves in the plastic under the frog (turn it over to see), then your frog rails can’t get power except from the direction opposite the frog from the points rails. So, you have to provide it, and that will be a feeder…particularly if the turnout at the end of the divergin route is meant to provide a siding or a runaround…then its frog does the same to that siding segment’s frog rails.
In practice, Pecos don’t always make a good connection to the diverging route, so you need extra feeders to make sure there’s power beyond the turnout. Where you put the feeders is determined by where you need the “booster” power on your layout to be.
Even if you used Atlas turnouts, you’d probably still have to put extra feeders on tracks to make sure you had sufficient power in all sections. Suppose you had 100 yards of track with your power pack hooked up to one end. You would have power routed to the very end, but the resistance of the track is such that your engine would probably stop maybe 20-30 yards down the line.
I am DC, so I cannot speak for what’s needed for DCC.
In fact, Peco code 75 and 83 Electrofrog turnouts can be made extremely reliable with no dead spot at the frog AND virtually short-proof, equally good with DC and DCC.
The procedure is to:
cut the jumpers between the frog and fixed point rails
connect jumpers between the stock rails and fixed point rails in the gaps provided in the plastic. This step is not mentioned in the Peco application sheet, but should be.
power the frog from external contacts, such as on a Tortoise or Bluepoint machine
Now you have a turnout with points power coming from two sources, not totally dependent on point-to-stockrail contact. There are no opposing polarity rails in close proximity at any place in the turnout, not at the frog or moving points. And with a powered frog, you have no dead spot for old engines with single pickups to stall on.
Note that additional work is needed with Peco 100 Electrofrogs. They are an older design, and new gaps must be cut in them, which may intimidate some.
I have 35 installed code 75 Electrofrogs and 130 locos of every type. I run both DC and DCC power and engines. All my cars have metal wheels. Because of these mods, the Pecos have been completely trouble free.
Hal
Thanks for an excellant answer, and if I had know the diagram provided by Peco was missing information “This step is not mentioned in the Peco application sheet, but should be”… That would have answered the problem 6-months ago.
I wished there were someone local that could actually show me what to do so that I could then take care of the 17 turnouts I have…
Anyone want to make some $$ on the side and do it for me?
LOL
Brian