Hi from the & Northern Railroad (NY&N). I’m building a new layout after years in the military where it sometime seemed that my hobby was chainsawing the railroad in prep for the next move. Am designing for DCC from the ground up and definitely not missing wiring in all the block controls, although the track is still richly segmented for isolation purposes. Price is definitely a consideration and it seems like IR, if reliable, will fit my needs nicely. My assumption is that after all these years Digitrack would not still be putting IR in their throttles if it didn’t work well, but radio seems to be all the rage. So I’m a little concerned. I have zero DCC experience, don’t know anybody who uses IR, and would appreciate any comments on my proposed approach.
The space is about 25’x 14’ with an aisle along the wall at one end and halfway down a side wall. The rest is open and the layout is about 2’ wide around the parameter with a duck-under and the operators in the center. There is no wall along the aisle nor any line-of-sight ob
I know when sitting in my recliner I have to reach my arm way out to the left and lean some to get the infrared TV remote lined up with the TV to change the channel. I’d hate to have a $300 engine heading towards a trip to the concrete floor and find a similar difficulty in getting the infrared throttle to respond and stop the engine!!
I just use a plug-in UT4 now, if I had it to do over again I would have paid a little more and gotten the UT-4R. That way, when the layout gets big enough to need radio, I could just add the UR-91 receiver (I think that’s the name?) and have radio control.
You can send a Digitrax throttle back to them for them to install radio, I think it costs $50, so I guess you could try the set-up you were looking at, and if the infrared doesn’t work convert later to radio.
You have quite well summarized the issues. It is line of sight and assuming you can accommodate that, it works reasonably well. It is somewhat responsive with little obvious lag or delay. It is limited on the number of functions that can be transmitted. I seem to recall that the UR90 can only handle 0-8 functions. You can most likely check that on the DIgitrax knowledge base to verify, but I am fairly certain.
The good news is that the basic throttles are IR and your only cost is the UR90 which is not that much at $35.00 if it does not work out to your satisfaction then you can always e-bay it and upgrade to Radio later. For what it is worth I just added the Duplex radio to my system and now have some throttles on IR and one on Duplex radio running together.
Regarding upgrades to the throttles, there is an upgrade cost chart at the bottom of the DT402 announcement page. They are not accepting them back for upgrade before September.
You are going with a very good digital system, however, you may find some issues with programming Sound decoders with the Super Chief…but that is a whole other story.
Radio will ALWAYS be more reliable than IR. It is all the ‘rage’ because people are tired of the limitations of IR. The IR that is ‘free’ in the throttles from Digitrax is a basic feature, and hence why you do not have to pay more for it. Digitrax IR is like a really bad TV remote, you have to point it exactly at the UR90.
If you want reliability, get the DT402D, which is the new Duplex standard (you have to plug in to aquire your locos with IR and Regular radio, UR90 and 91 respectively). You never, ever have to plug it in (except to register your throttle), and that means that you will not need any UP5s on your fascia, ever.
8 amps is too much for your application. If you happen to have a short on your railroad (like a derailment) and your SuperChief doesnt pick it up right away, you run the chance of melting or welding an axle. 5 amps is plenty.
I highly advise you not to jump in your purchases without knowing what you are getting into. Asking questions on forums like these will save you money in the long run.
Go with the radio version. I can control my layout with my DT400r and UT4r from outside my house while standing out by my mailbox. My clubs layout is on the third floor of a brick building and it can also be operated from out on the street.
You seem dead set with Digitrax. If you do go with it go radio. Radio is fire and forget while IR is fire and wait in the danger zone till the round hits. There are other options from other manufactures like NCE or Lenz and CVP also. They are all good systems. If you can go to shops or shows with modular layouts and try all the systems you can just to get a feel of the throttle and talk with the people about them.
8 amps is large. 5 amps will do nicely. One booster and a few breakers to chop up the layout into sections is the way to go. Sort of like the old DC switches but using one transformer instead of two.
Radio Shack has some small rectangular magnets that work good. I just found some magnets at the hardware store for 50 cents each that are really strong. On one of my modules I used the Radio Shack magnets for a scale track. They work real good even through the ballast and boards between the rails.
Your space seems a bit large for reliable IR oeration, especially if you don;t have white ceiling tiles to help reflect the signal. You’ll be happier in the long run with radio. The new DT400D radio throttle and UR92 use 2.4GHz radio for better range than the old 900MHz system, plus it is now truly wireless, you don;t have to plug in to aquire a loco. Anotehr bit of note is that the UR90 IR panel doesn’t know how to pass messages for functions higher than F8, so if you have sound units, this could be a factor.
I also agree 8 amps is overkill. The 5 amp system is fine, if you need more pwoer you can add an extra booster. Power supplies for 5 amp boosters are easy to find. For 8 amps - not so easy. Contrary to their claims, the Magna Force MF615 is NOT an 8 amp power supply. It can go higher than 5 amps, but the output voltage drops off too much with an 8 amp load. Stick with 5 amp boosters. It should be plenty. I’ve had as many as 8 sound locos runnign off my 2.5 amp Zephyr at the same time. Size of the layout is only a secondary factor in how big a booster you need, what really matter is how many locos you exepect to have in operation at any given time. You could have a 50x100 layout but run no more than 2 locos at a time, you wouldn;t need even a 5 amp system for that. Conversly, you could have a 10x12 layout that can support 12 locos, all of which are old Athearn Blue Box and Bowser steam locos without modern low current motors. 5 amps might be pushign it to run that.
NY&N,
As others have addressed the R vs. IR issue (I say go with Radio over IR…Digitrax IR hasn’t worked so well for our club), I’ll go with the uncoupling magnets like Pete and recommend Radio Shack. They have a variety of rare-earth magnets available last I saw, and some are pretty powerful. You’d have to bury them under the track, however.
David,
I gotta disagree with a couple items:
1). The Chief is capable of programming all sound decoders…but it may not be able to read them all. Ops Mode will program them if nothing else does. For NY&N, the PowerPax would be a good investment if he has problems…but only if he has problems.
2). Totally agree with the UR90’s and IR. We never had much success with it, but perhaps that’s because of our room: http://www.ssmrc.org/P3243627.JPG
3). While I agree that the DT402D is the way if one can afford it, the cord would be needed if anything goes wrong…like running out of battery juice or perhaps losing control (I don’t know if that’s possible with the DT402D, but I know it’s happened often enough with the DT400R’s). I do wish that they’d change that to a socket on the DT402 rather than a pigtail.
4). I disagree with the 5 amp vs. 8 amp. The circuit breakers trip in approx. 1/2 second. You’re not welding much in 1/2 second at either 5 or 8 amps. Our club has been using 8 amp boosters for the past 10 years, and we’ve never welded wheels to the rail. Melting? It got close once when we had a “high resistance short” at a switch, and it made the ties a little soft, but the damage was slight and the switch is still in service on our mainline.
5). Totally agree with that one.
Randy,
The problem is the capacitors on the sound locos. Even when not running, they nee
I’ve been using a DT400 and UP5 for 18 months. Tonight I installed the UP92 and the DT402d. I also played with the ir. I’ll I have to say is radio, radio, radio, and I’m only a few feet from the receiver.
Paul: when I had the 8 soudn locos running on my Zephyr, I deliberately shorted the rails to see this problem first-hand. When I took the screwdriver off the track - everythign started right back up, no problems! Granted, they weren’t all QSI, only 3 of them were. 2 others were Loksound. I’m beginning to think it’s ONLY QSI that causes this problem - and itr’s totally unecessary as a simple diode and resistor would resolve it. Maybe it’s my loss, but when a simpel and cheap engineerign fix would resolve a problem like that yet the manufacturer refuses to do it, then I simply won;t buy that product. I really am tired of hearing “well it meets all NMRA standards” That’s a copout. Digitrax’s sound decoders have a keepalive capacitor on them, yet there is no inrush problem because AJ incorporated the proper circuit design to slow down that inrush. And they also program on any system without a booster, so obviously THAT’s possible too - are you listening, QSI and Soundtraxx?
The problme with IR is that i/t is a line of sight method that can easily be blocked. Radio doesn’t have that problem especially if you are dealing with a DT402D and the UR92. The system has range of about 300 feet from I have heard so you don’t have to worry baout the signal being blocked or even be out of range.
I have a Digitrax SuperChief Radio system with 2 - 5A boosters and an 8A booster. I highly suggest radio over infrared, for the reasons most have described. I’ll be going to the full duplex version soon, once they accept the upgrades starting in September. As for 5A vs. 8A, both work fine with the proper short circuit protection. The 8A is only a few dollars more, so the value is better.
I have had my Duplex throttle for a couple of weeks now and it is not blocked by anything. I can be anywhere in my house including 2 floors up from the basement and the throttle controls a train.
Having lived with IR for the 3 or 4 years previously, as I said above, if you can live with the shortcomings it actually works quite well. It is certainly not nearly as convenient as radio, but is better than being tethered for not a lot of extra money.
do you think that the short pigtail doubles as an aeriel like the plug in earphones on mobile phones with radio built in?? it may be needed to get a good signal from the handset?
No, the pigtail cord on the DTxxx radio throttles is not now nor has ever been the antenna. The 2.4GHz of the DT402D uses an even shorter antenna than the 900MHz DT400R, and on both the antenna is fully inside the throttle.
Because it does project outside the case though, alterign th epigtail COULD change radiated RF, moving the throttle out of compliance with FCC regualtions. In reality, cutting off the pigtain and installing a 6p6c socket in the throttle case is going to reduce radiated interference if anything, however any change from the design submitted to the FCC for compliance testing would require all new testing. This goes for any device or appliance that requires such testing.
Hi everyone—Thank you for all the generous and comprehensive advice. I’m sure glad that I asked and I am full of gratitude. I owe you feedback on where I am in the decision process: There were concerns about the ability of the Digitrax SuperChief Extra to adequately program some sound modules. I don’t feel like I have a good handle on that yet so the whole SCX option is still an open issue. Assuming that it works out OK, and that I have accurately understood the group comments, here is the new objective architecture: 1. Buy the 8amp SCX with the plain vanilla DT402 and UP5, plus a UT4R Radio Utility Throttle and a UR-92 panel. 2. The group has concerns about 8 amp being too much and dangerous but for $20 it gives a lot of upgrade provision. I will call Digitrax and ask if it will be effective to limit the current by having the power supply set to only the minimum voltage (I have a scrounged variable transformer). In any event the layout will be heavy on short-protection.<
