It’s really difficult to have a meaningful comparison regarding “consumer goods” in the US vs. other countries. Per capita, we US folks have a large proportion of our income available for hobbies and such. Thus, a high percentage of the worlds consumer products end up for sale here in the USofA.
When I worked for the major international oil companies, I had the priviledge of associating with many foreign nationals - from Africa to both western and eastern Europe, to the Mid-east, to Asia.
Almost every one had the same comment when they visited the US… They were amazed at the quantity and assortment of goods available to the “average guy”. In particular, their biggest “in awe moments” came when visiting our Kroger or Jewel or Publix supermarkets. We do tend to take these for granted, but I assure you folks from outside our borders do not.
Uh, is that 12 per scale? Can I count narrow gauge separately?
Can I average 12 per scale and be okay?
I have 13 HO, 10 S, 5 Sn2, 4 O, and 1 G. So the average is 6.6 if you count Sn2 separately and 8.25 if not. So am I okay - the MRR police won’t bust in my door?
Or do I have to include my Lionel O27 engine?
What about the Thomas the Tank locomotive I got for my grandson to ride when he’s at my place?
Do my unbuilt kits count a full 1 each or should we count them as 1/2?
I think we need a committee to study the issue - maybe 12 volunteers? per scale?
I happen to be holding back and have been for about a year now. Last year was the first time that I happened to run across Bachmann On30 locomotives and cars. I was immediately hooked on them.
While I am currently modeling HO I found that the locomotives had a great level of detail and that while they were O scale the tracks used were in fact HO. I decided that I would plan a layout that would allow me to switch scales between the HO and On30. I could simply build various modlules in HO and O scale and switch them as the scale would change.
The layout I thought I would build would need a couple of steam locomotives for passenger service and also for mixed freight.
In addition I was going to have a mine and a lumber camp bringing in goods to town for further shippment.
I bought five steam engines and a number of box cars, flat cars and gondola’s as well as a few ore cars and log cars in addition to a number of passenger and baggage cars.
My track planning just would not work, the clearances I would need when running On30 were just too large to accomodate on my 8’ x 12’ layoutl.
So, until I tire of my present HO layout all things On30 are on hold. One day I will build a layout, just not now.
Sheldon, just because I won’t settle for lower detailed items doesn’t mean I don’t buy them. A large number of my rolling stock is Athearn RTR boxcars that I detailed to the level I want them to be at. I’m talking locomotives, I don’t care how many people think a Bachmann or a Walthers Trainline locomotive are just as good as a Proto, Kato etc. They are not and they never will be.
People settle for less for a reason. MONEY. Some people can’t afford to buy Kato or Genesis stuff and I understand that but these same people always say you can have just as much fun with a Bachmann or a Trainline loco. I can’t. These same people usually then go on about how the hobby is ending, the common folk can’t afford it and how all this high end stuff has ruined the hobby. That I don’t understand. This stuff is just incredible to look at, the detail is spectacular and the running characteristics are second to none. Whats not to like? The cost? It seems to me that these same people are trying to convince themselves more then the forum members.
Ulrich, saying RTR is ready to repair is not a fair statement at all. In all my years of model railroading and collecting the RTR stuff that I do I have only ever had to fix a couple of loose grab irons and of course the infamous cracked gears on all my Proto GP’s that I bought dirt cheap.
It is sad when people want to do things but because of the cost they just can’t. There are a lot of things I want to do but I can’t because of the cost. Sometimes you just got to give up on that dream and move in another direction.
It´s a statement based on experience. The last time I had a loco that was complete and had no flaw at all was 25 years ago, when my wife bought me a Marklin loco for our 3rd anniversary. All purchases since then had some flaw, be it missing or broken off parts, fried decoders, wheels out of gauge, coupler springs missing, blotted paint jobs, lettering missing - you name, I had it. OK, most of them were easy to fix, but, heck, I don´t want to spend a fortune on a loco, only to find out it has a glitch. Yes, the list also includes Marklin, which is not up to the standard they used to have.
But, adjusted for inflation that loco cost $2000 US, as stated before, if locos cost that much, I would not be in this hobby at all.
I’m very happy with my $100 and less Bachmann’s, Intermountain’s, Proto’s, Athearn’s, etc, that from time to time require a little tweak here and there when they come out of the box. Even the two BLI locos I had to completely rebuild, because they were bought at deep discounts, to me represnt a better value than ultra expensive perfection. But I would not buy a Benz or a BMW for similar reasons - price way past the ponint of deminishing return.
Sometmes it’s a tweak I want for my needs, not really a “flaw”. Much of the high end “perfect” stuff I have seen isactually harder to work on in that reguard.
Well, before this thread “bus” gets driven too far down the road of politics, I’ll throw in my two cents addressing the original topic.
I think any time we measure, or graph, any thing in economics, the line over the long term tends to be smoother and more linear than if measured in the short term. Examining the graphs of many economic statistics will reveal short periods of peaks and valleys that are concealed when measured over a longer period.
I think the 1990’s to mid 2000’s probably was a recent golden age of locomotive production and pricing, whereby the makers were able to take advantage of ultra cheap labor in China. Looking at the adds in those years of MR, I recall an Athearn BB GP38 going for about $25 and a highly detailed P2K going for about $50. While it was twice as much, $25 more isn’t really that much money. Now P2K’s are well over $100.
I think prices have spiked higher in the past five years and are felt by more because incomes of the consumer have probably not kept pace. The consumer feels it more.
So if the OP is complaining about prices, he may just be looking at the past couple of years and comparing prices to the comparitively depressed prices of a decade ago.
People settle for less for a reason. MONEY. Some people can’t afford to buy Kato or Genesis stuff and I understand that but these same people always say you can have just as much fun with a Bachmann or a Trainline loco. I can’t. These same people usually then go on about how the hobby is ending, the common folk can’t afford it and how all this high end stuff has ruined the hobby. That I don’t understand. This stuff is just incredible to look at, the detail is spectacular and the running characteristics are second to none. Whats not to like? The cost? It seems to me that these same people are trying to convince themselves more then the forum members.
Prove to me one can’t have fun with Bachmann,Train line,Trainman or the old BB locomotives?
It can’t be done.
The hobby has always been about choice…
I like Athearn RTR ,Atlas,Atlas/Roco,Atlas Trainman and Walthers P2K…I like my Athearn BB locomotives.
Why?
Surprise! They fit my modeling requirements! Imagine that.
I like that new Bachman S4 with sound just as well as I like my older Atlas/Roco S4s.
I’m happy with my choices and that is all that matters.
In my case, Sheldon, some Bachmann offerings are flaws because the offering is either vastly different from the prototype or it never existed at all. The former is true of their 0-6-0, 2-6-0 and 4-6-0; the latter is true of their 2-6-2. No amount of tweaking (unless we’re talking major kitbash) make it worth the expenditure.
I will once again repeat my view that running quality and value vs price is a seperate issue from prototype accuracy.
I’m not new to this hobby like many of you and remember the days when out of sheer lack of product choices, manufacturers made generic locos and put lots of names on the side of them.
If that does not fit you needs, don’t buy that product. That has nothing to do with “ready to repair” vs high priced perfection.
Those Bachmann models you site are “regular line” “train set locos” - yes they are generic. I don’t own any of those either.
The fact that they offer those, does not negate the long list of reasonably accurate excelent running locos they have made and sold over the last 15-20 years.
The USRA 4-8-2’s, N&W J, 2-6-6-2’s, USRA 2-10-2’s, PRR K4, EM-1, etc,etc,etc,etc, are all excelent in the prototype accuracy department. And the detail is very fine and “to scale” unlike the bulky “handling safe” detail on many MTH products at three times the price.
In a discussion like this Bachmann is always an easy target because they make stuff at every level of price and experiance in this hobby.
To make blanket statements using the “worst” Bachmann piece by comparing it to Proto or Genesis is simply not fair.
The whole of the current Bachmann diesel line is on a par with Walthers Train Line or Athearn Ready to Roll diesels.
But a Spectrum steamer is a whole different story when it comes to detail.
Sure, a new Bachmann GP7 is not as detailed as a Proto GP7 - it does not cost as much either.
But my Bachmann Spectrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2’s and my 2-6-6-2’s have much better detail than ANY of my 5 BLI steamers - by a long shot.
Judging the whole Bachmann product line with one broad brush is a big mistake - some of it is beyond superb - some of it is just reasonable quality train set material.
And in there are a few surprises, like the new regular line Berkshire - it has a few weak points easily fixed, but at its price, it is an exceptional loco. I would rather buy that for $130 and add some weight and a few details then pay MTH prices for one with incorrect sand boxes on some of the roadnames offered - prototype accuracy Tom?
I agree, Sheldon. That’s why I used the word “some”.
I tend to buy the best that I can afford. Like you, Sheldon, I also hunt for the best deal I can find. If inaccuracies or lack of details are fixable then I have no problem correcting or adding them. However, if it’s going to require a major overhaul, I’d rather spend my monies elsewhere or do without.
The same would hold true for an undecorated 2-8-4 Berkshire; albeit Proto 2000 or Bachmann. The P&LE or B&A Berks are noticeably different from the NKP, Pere Marquette, or C&O Berks. Doing any sort of work on one in order to get it close would be a substantial undertaking.
I am glad that you are able to utilize the Bachmann Spectrum line into your Atlantic Central.
Here comes the monthly trolling. I can see it now. While I am one of the doing more for less people, I can tell you somethings are changing. As of late Bachmann has released a bunch of DCC on Board steam locos for a really decent price. I think one is even $109 with dcc and sound. I buy cheaper locos and rolling stock and decorate them up. It’s amazing what a few details and some paint will do. The market will dictate prices all by itself. If the manufactures can’t make any money they will go out of business. In some ways higher prices are good. sounds crazy??? But when a manufacture makes a product now they had better guess correctly or it will bite them hard. People that haven’t been able to get items now are getting them. Quality of the less expensive items is increasing. Buy what you want when you want if the price is right.
I see we are still beating a dead horse and they are letting us continue.
So maybe I will chime in here again.
One can spend whatever one WANTS to, or WHATEVER one can AFFORD to in a hobby. THAT is why there are differing manufacturers making different priced {and maybe quality too} equipment.
It is the SAME with anything else!
I drive a Kia minivan…used but new to me, Why? They are cheaper than other models and it was what I could AFFORD. We have a '98 hanging on and $1000 -ing us to death sometimes, but it is what we have. We cannot quite do without 2 vehicles, so we keep it. They make cheaper vehicles for that reason! I have no need for a $35,000-$40,000 minivan NOR a ROlls-Royce so I don’t worry about them.
We live in a a trailer, because it is paid for and a separate {but cheaper}housing arrangement. It works on our budget. They make trailers for people of lesser means to live in for that reason! We would like a house and there are cheaper houses we are lookign at, but I don’t need a 5 BR 4 BA 3500 sq feet house either! 1000 sqft 2-3 br 1 ba will do fine. I don’t worry about the houses I can’t afford! I am Greatful for the trailer we have!
They make CHEAPER LOCOS and cheaper ROLLING STOCK for those whose budgets wouldn’t support a small country!!
They make fancy locos with sound and DCC for those who want or can save up for them. I have no need for them,so I don’t worry about their price.
Other hobbies are more expensive. They warn you on sites for rail speeders that the hobby is NOT for the ill-financed {meaning it takes money} OR for the non-mechanically inclined {meaning if your speeder breaks down on a line run of speeders on the rails, you’d better be able to fix it fast}< so I Don’t belong in THAT hobby no matter how exciting it may sound!
One can spend what one wants or has to spend and if one has “to many” of something, maybe they SHOULD “hold back” on any more.
A lot of the newer Bachmann DCC on board locomotives are diamonds in the rough…Add a hand full of detail parts and they will look as good as any.The same applies for Athearn RTR and Atlas Trainman locomotives.Add details and you end up with a very nice locomotive.
As far as manufacturers getting bit if it not correct Athearn found that out with their Genesis GP7/9 that wasn’t so perfect after all due to incorrect or botch details.There’s been a lot of reported QC issues with Genesis locomotives.
Atlas got slapped with some broken high end bulkhead flat cars awhile back.
Exactrail used the wrong numbers on the first run of their Southern PS Waffle side boxcars.
High dollar models doesn’t always mean perfection out of the box.
Seems everybody is being civil toward each other unlike what I seen here years ago and on that fallen flag forum.
And my comment about the various Genesis problems is well documented on several forums as is the broken bulkhead flats from Atlas.ER did indeed use the wrong numbers on the first run of the Southern PS Waffles.Athearn has RTR QC issues-hopefully their new manufacturer will end those problems.Atlas turnouts has QC issues.
This topic seems all to familiar…(but I’ll participate anyway, lol)
$265.00 and up is not average price. For those products that are, I feel the MSRP is reasonable given the detail and features. I couldn’t kitbash something THAT detailed. If I could, I probably still wouldn’t gripe because if I didn’t like the price, I’d do it myself.
As others have stated, I’ll echo; it’s up to the individual whether or not it’s time to hold back. Sorry, no “occupy model railroading” is going to happen because realistically, we can all survive without it in the end. Manufacturers know this.
I personally have a large fleet of locomotives both Diesel and electric and they fill my “needs” for now. I’m actually happy to say that there are very few locos that I’ve salivated over that haven’t been mass-produced at some point or something close enough where I was able to kitbash.
I’m just waiting on the MP36 from True Line Trains and anticipate purchasing five of those (two MARC, 3 METRA). They’re in production now!
So in a sense you can say I’m holding back but not as a sign of protest if that’s what’s being insinuated. Consider me more so in “cruise control”. When starting out, one is likely spending at a higher rate because one is trying to build their roster and fill up your yards with equipment, in addition to making trains longer and having variety. I believe I’ve built my roster up to a point in which I am satisfied.
What I’m doing now is literally saving my pennies in anticipation of some re-tooled products of models I already have that leave a lot to be desired compared to the standards of today’s rollingstock. The intent is between now, the announcement and the eventual release, I would have saved enough money to purchase (AT LEAST) the initial quantity “needed”.
My rollingstock numbers need to catch up to the number of locomotives I have anyway but I have no