Legacy can’t control Proto 2 engines because MTH does not allow it. DCS can control TMCC because Lionel published the control codes when TMCC came out. DCS will not be able to control any Legacy only functions. Legacy is not being licensed to other companies like the original TMCC was.
" as does the DCS which allows full functions of tmcc and maybe legacy also . Looks like MTH may win again ."
Or look at this way. If an MTH fan wants to buy and run an Atlas, Lionel, Weaver, 3rd Rail or K-Line loco instead of an MTH loco, he or she can do so knowing they work in command mode emulation just by buying a $120 or less cab-1 and command base, or even just a command base for $50 on eBay. If a Lionel fan wants to buy an MTH PS2 loco to use in command mode, first he’s got to go out and spend $250 or more on DCS, and he cannot use his cab-1 or cab-2 to control it. MTH has set things up so that folks who started using TMCC six years before DCS was introduced have more obstacles to overcome to operate their locos with TMCC than vice versa. Seems to favor sales of TMCC locos to MTH fans and discourage sales of PS2 locos to Lionel fans. It’s worked for me. I haven’t bought an MTH loco in almost seven years :).
Has anyone considered the possibility that the catalog pricing mite be somewhat of a “marketing” strategy. Yes the MSRP seems a bit hi but a lot of the “preorder” pricing appears to be very attractive on most items which could help to increase the preorder volume thereby helping to reduce the number of production cancellations. Kind of an updated version of “bait & switch”. There are a few items, no pricey ones, that I plan on pre-ordering and if the economy weren’t so screwed I would seriously consider ordering more. Just my [2c].
Nblum … yea … but admit it … I have the cab-1 … paid a darn good amount for it … could have went for MTH … should have listened to Chief back then . MTH engineered theirs to be upgraded … used with tmcc … and used for ALL their new engines with hundreds of new files for updating free … now Lionel wants me to buy another $300.00 component system … no way to update the other one … and again proprietary to their engines only . In another year or so they’ll change again … I’ll have $900.00 in lionel controllers … they left us holding the bag … empty and wet ! The prices for MTH engines are better … more of them on the market … and all the new ones still function with all the bells and whistles through their controller system . I just feel Lionel screwed us … just my opinion …
"The prices for MTH engines are better … more of them on the market … and all the new ones still function with all the bells and whistles through their controller system"
The prices for equivalent products tend to be equivalent in this marketplace. But your argument about the control systems doesn’t hold up, IMO. Legacy isn’t necessary to control any new or old Lionel command locos. You can use TMCC just fine, unless you want the upgraded features, like better speed control, quillable whistle, train brake, etc. These are hardware features. You cannot get that by upgrading TMCC because the locos and the hardware are different in that regard. The exact same thing is true about DCS from MTH. Most of the software upgrades have been bug fixes and things left out of the original release. Now that MTH is trying to match Legacy sound wise, old PS2 locos cannot use the quillable whistle feature unless you do a hardware upgrade. What I’m saying is simply this, that DCS is no more useful as an upgradeable system than Legacy is, and TMCC still operates everything Lionel ever made or will make anytime soon.
If anything you should be annoyed that MTH took six years to come out with a command system that equals TMCC. And that they still have those annoying batteries inside their locomotives. 
Competition has been good for the consumer in many ways, pricewise especially, but if you look at it realistically, Lionel has been the major innovator, and MTH largely the follower in command and sound technology. If you think DCS is a superior system in any real way, except to operate PS2 locos, you will be sorely disappointed in the long run. You need both systems unless you are only operating TMCC/Legacy or only PS2 locos. DCS will not solve your command issues in the long run if you keep buying TMCC or
Neil, your Lionel bias is know by about 90% of the folks on CTT. I have a Lionel bias [but I started with DCS]. With the new catalog [which is the original discussion], I have lost that bias. Lionel has “screwed the pooch” on this catalog. Will see their sales go way down. Biggest talk of the town in train world.
Greg, not all TMCC features are working on DCS. Also, that stupid DCS remote is too slow responding. Why I switched to TMCC and Legacy.
One catalog you don’t like and you’re sour on Lionel? That’s your right, but frankly I’m surprised. Chief, there are things in the catalog that are attractive to me and others I could care less about. There are things I consider good value and things I consider pricey. All in all, it’s a pretty innovative and daring catalog, not to mention graphically attractive. I’m still pretty vague what people don’t like other than reacting to the MSRP as if it were a personal insult. When I look at the street prices at the major on-line dealers, the prices seems pretty fair and reasonable, for the most part. They clearly have raised the ante on the conventional classics line for some reason, and I’d guess the sales won’t be as good as the first round for that reason. Given that this is the first real post-bankruptcy catalog and post-recession catalog, it’s surprising to me it’s so large and so ambitious. Your mileage may vary.
Both MTH and Lionel put out ho hum catalogs now and then. Especially when the market is saturated as it appears to be now. Despite what the majority of critics are saying, there is some neat stuff in this catalog. At least for me anyway. But then the same critics post over and over and over how bad it is so the statistics are a tad slanted.
I got my copy today and I looked over it in person and I do like some of the stuff Lionel is coming out with. Some of the things I do like are the tank cars w/ freight sounds and I also like the burning depot the hobos are using.For a 17 year old like me I really enjoy some of the new stuff they are coming out with.The only thing I do not like is the fact that the vision line is so expensive!!!,but I do really like the new catolog!!!
Chief,
I don’t have DCS so I don’t have first hand knowledge of what TMCC functions are available though DCS. I do remember reading comments about issues with TMCC lashups under DCS. All I was trying to point out was that DCS can control TMCC engines because Lionel published enough information about TMCC that MTH was able to build it into DCS. Old Timer is upset with Lionel that Legacy can’t control DCS engines when it is MTH that is preventing that from happening.
I think people are sometimes forgetting that there are THREE Lionel catalogs. The “Signature” catalog that includes the “Vision” line products, The K-Line by Lionel catalog and the Ready-to-Run catalog. I have read many positive comments about all of the catalogs as well as negative ones. The Signature catalog has generated the majority of negative comments.
“The Signature catalog has generated the majority of negative comments.”
True, and it’s equal parts Lionel’s ill considered rebate plan and sour grapes from those mistakenly assuming the street price of the high end locos will be substantially higher than previous JLC items. Hopefully Lionel will learn from this mistake if it costs them sales.
That said, I’m in for the <$300 New Haven Electric with TMCC and some $80 (Island Trains Price) command controlled Fastrack switches. I consider these items good value indeed at this point in history.
Neil,
It appears Lionel has modified the rebate plan. See my post on the “PRR & Santa Fe ??? Seriously ???” thread.
Oh, BTW, Your description of the rebate plan was far more diplomatic than mine.
It proves Lionel is listening and Don’s point about ATSF/Pennsy is a good reason to make the revision. The so called majority of negative comments are coming from a small vocal group who seem to think the status quo they are involved in is the only status quo in the hobby. The people who are intriuged by the vision line probably don’t post on forums or fear getting flamed out considering the flavor and volume level of the forum rants.
"It appears Lionel has modified the rebate plan. "
And a wise decision at that :). There will still be some poor yobs who say “Lionel doesn’t listen to me.” One of the good things about the internet is virtually instantaneous feedback on bad ideas.
Stopped in at the local train club … mentioned I was thinking of buying a MTH - DCS system … won’t do that again … LOL . Received the full lecture and why not to ! I thought they were going to form a lynch mob . [banghead] Well I guess legacy is the way to go … man those guys are gung ho lionel … when they know you personally they’re not as nice about it as you all are … but I love em … they’re my buddies . I think I will take lionroar88 up on that offer … my son got fanatic being able to see the new system and engines with all the new features . There goes my bank account again … LOL . He said … now dad you can give me your old cab-1 … made his day !