Lionel HO - 1957-1966, 1974-1978, 1989-1990

I just noticed that it seems my old Lionel HO thread wasn’t carried over from the old forum.
I wanted to make a new thread, to be able to share some of my collection and maybe inspire others to share.

My area of collecting is exclusively Postwar (1957-1966) and MPC (1974-1978), though I also would include the “Railscope” from 1989-1990 if I owned one. I’m not really interested in the products that Lionel offers today in HO, just the classic stuff from the postwar era, and items made in the MPC years that used updated postwar tooling.

I will probably post infrequently, as I only get around to photographing items and editing videos now and then.

-El

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I just finished editing this feature- Lionel/Rivarossi items are pretty tough to collect, I only have a few. While I mostly prefer to collect trains made by Lionel themselves, the Rivarossi pieces are well made and the challenge in finding them makes them entertaining to look for!

I don’t have the best looking Western Pacific C-Liners in the world, but they do run well.

-El

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This lovely new piece arrived in the mail for me today.

Lionel offered its 4-6-2 pacific from 1959 to 1966. The model was produced using dies that originated with John English, patterned after a USRA light pacific. Several pacifics were cataloged over the years, with typically subtle differences between them.

My latest acquisition is the elusive 0637 pacific. You won’t find it in any of the catalogs, because it was not a cataloged item. Unless anyone can verify whether or not the 0054 Canadian Pacific switcher was ever produced, it also holds the distinction of being the only uncatalogued locomotive from the entire 1957-1966 run of Lionel’s postwar HO.

To my knowledge, it is unknown what outfit(s) the 0637 pulled, but based off of the design changes that occurred to cataloged pacifics over the years, the characteristics of every 0637 I’ve seen pictures of would date it to some time in 1966.


The 0637 would be paired with an 0625T-110 tender. Don’t have one yet, but I do have the earlier 0625T.

I will have more to share about this engine in the near future, I’m looking forwards to bringing this rare engine back into action.

-El

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Great job on that C-Liner repair Ellie! Runs like a champ now, maybe even better than new! :+1:

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That’s one hefty-looking Pacific, like it spends six hours a day in the gym!

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That is one good looking steamer. Nice find! :+1:

Rich

@Flintlock76 I don’t think the C-liners are quite as good as new, but they’re pretty good.

Something I didn’t really go over in my video, is that my 0503 power unit actually had a slight bit of zinc rot. A pretty mild case, the motor truck wasn’t falling apart, but there were some very faint cracks, and a slight warp. Enough to cause one of the brass gears to disengage sometimes. I was worried the casting was toast, but was able to to make a shim that brought the gears back into alignment and haven’t had problems since. I really didn’t want to have to import a €42 replacement casting from Rivarestore if there was any way of avoiding sinking a bunch of money into it.

The 0637 is very similar in appearance to the other Lionel pacifics, with a few subtle differences. Lionel started adding the white stripe on the running board with models introduced in 1963, and continued through 1966. The little brass bell on the boiler is unique to the 0637 and some 0647 examples.

-El

I don’t blame you, the engine’s probably not even worth that much used.

Wayne, you might be surprised. Especially when in very good condition, Lionel/Rivarossi pieces are very collectable to Lionel HO collectors. Nice examples with good original boxes and inserts can be worth quite a bit.

That said, my examples lack boxes, and have many cosmetic flaws. I believe I spent around $45-50 on b]my A-B-A set of C-Liners, all told. Maybe I overpaid, maybe not. Looking at completed eBay listings, A dummy A unit in only marginally better shape than mine sold for about this much earlier in February. A complete A-B-A set with no boxes sold for over $170 last December. Personally, I would never pay these prices, especially not for the WP road name.

Ultimately, a train is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. But for me, part of the fun in Lionel HO is that it is, at least for now, a somewhat niche market- the collector base is far smaller than that of Lionel O gauge, and most Lionel collectors do not know much, if anything, about it- nor do they have any real interest in collecting it. For these reasons, depending on how high-grade you like your pieces, it is still quite possible (with a little patience) to build up a collection of Lionel HO equipment for, at times, considerably less money than one might need to spend in O gauge.

-El

Great points and well thought-out Ellie! Best of luck with the hunt!

The 0637 is mostly done at this point. One lingering issue, is that the smoke unit is very leaky. This seems to be a common issue, as I think pretty much every single one of my smoking Lionel engines has had it. Imho, the smoke unit design is kinda crappy- mostly for this reason.

While I could try to make an entirely new rubber gasket for the smoke unit, I did find that cleaning everything thoroughly and carefully gluing the gasket in place seems to work ok, at least temporarily. I’m not sure I could even make a good replacement gasket.


Note that, afaik, Lionel didn’t issue exploded diagrams for HO products introduced after 1961 (and only some of the items introduced before then), so there is no diagram for the 0637. However, the smoke unit assembly remained more or less unchanged from the 0635 introduced in 1961. This scan comes from the Olsen’s Toy Train Parts diagram archive.

Will keep folks posted on how I get on, hopefully I can take care of that leaking problem nice and easy.

-El

Thought I’d make another post to the HO thread.

Lately I’ve had a rather interesting project in- a friend via the internet asked me a little while ago if I’d be interested in repairing his Lionel 0642. I have one myself, and it’s one of my favorite Lionel HO engines in my collection.

Over the past week I was finally able to make some good progress on it, and it’s almost finished. His ultimate goal is to do a DCC conversion, so it can be run on train club layouts. Because of this, rather than just a repair, I’ve also made some modifications to the locomotive to help simplify the conversion process when the time comes. One of these changes was to swap the original Lionel 1960s “U” magnet motor for a shiny new can motor.
Low speed performance is pretty comparable to the original motor, but far less power hungry and quieter too.

I haven’t properly documented the conversion process, but it was interesting. I modified the collector assembly so that the chassis is completely isolated. I’m happy to report that this went quite well.

Here’s a pic of the chassis with the new motor, part way through the process:


the new motor is much more efficient than the original, and probably a little more powerful.
Here’s a picture from when I was working my way through figuring out the collector.

not shown are a piece of paper insulation, and a plastic screw, that were also involved in the assembly. The design worked out quite well, and I would probably do something similar if not identical if I ever have to do this sort of conversion again.

-El

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In light of the recent thread on vintage HO, I have been inspired to try and post more. The trouble is I have to take the time to snap pictures, as I don’t usually have a bunch already.

Today, we’re going to talk about the Lionel 0605 saddle tank switcher!
This locomotive’s origins began with the John A. English company. From what I can tell, it was originally offered as motive power for John English’s HObbyline train sets in the late '50s. It was also offered as an unpowered, all-plastic kit. There is a thread on the Tyco Trains forum with pictures of the unpowered kit, and powered RTR version, which can be found here:
John English, HObbyline HO Trains
@Darth_Santa_Fe has done an impressive conversion of one of the unpowered kits into an operating model, I highly recommend checking it out:

Lionel had launched their HO line in 1957, and initially must have found success, as somewhere around 1958 Lionel decided to purchase the majority of the HO scale tooling from John A English, and set about re-tooling for a new line of Lionel HO products, revealed in the 1959 consumer catalog. The 0605 saddle tank was among the full line of new Lionel HO motive power introduced that year, and aside from some subtle changes in 1960, would remain in the catalogs unchanged through 1962.

Unfortunately, my only example (to date) is a fairly battered one. Nonetheless, I got it relatively inexpensively, and it is a fun piece to have in my collection. I hope to eventually find one without so much damage to the plastic body.





Here is a video of it in operation:

It’s a fine little runner. Most of these are non-operational due to failed rubber drive belts. They can be a little finicky to get working.

I will make a followup post with a little more interesting context about the Lionel model, stay tuned.

-El

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OK, time for part II!

The 0605 was one of the longest running locomotives in the Lionel HO line, running continuously from 1959 to 1962. In addition to being available for separate sale all 4 years, it also headed up 2 catalog outfits, and at least 3 promotionals. Following the precident set by the Authoratative Guide to Lionel’s Promotional Outfits by John W. Schmid, all three promotional outfits can be classified as General Release Promotionals with Catalog Items.

For its debut year, the 0605 was the motive power of catalog outfit no. 5723. This outfit comprised of the 0605 steamer, 0808 NYC flat car with tractor load, 0870 Maintenance Car with Generator, 0860 Derrick Car, and 0819 Work Caboose (Lionel did not specify which, it seems that both 0819-100 and 0819-200 cabooses can be found with this set). It also came with an oval of track and an 0103 HO transformer.

1960 was a big year for Operating Cars, with the ill-fated space and military items hitting the HO line. The 0605 would head up one Catalog outfit, and one General Release Promotional.
Outfit 5737 was the second cheapest HO set in the catalog for that year. Besides the switcher, the outfit contained the new 0319 Operating Helicopter Car, 0821 Pipe Car, and 0819 work caboose. As in the previous year, while the illustration depicted a particular road name, Lionel did not specify a road name or suffix for the caboose in the set contents. Santa Fe and C&O work cabooses appear to both be possible components of this outfit.

Also available in 1960 was General Release Promotional outfit 5761 ‘The Work Hawk’. This set would have been advertised in the 1960 dealer advance catalog for 1960. According to Greenberg’s Guide to Lionel HO (2nd edition), this outfit’s components were the 0605 steamer, 0319 Operating Helicopter Car, 0301 Operating Coal Dump Car, 0842 Culvert Pipe Car, and 0841 caboose. It did not include track or transformer.

By 1961, newer motive power replaced the 0605 in the lower end HO sets, and it was relegated to the separate sale section of the consumer catalog. It was, however, the motive power for one new General Release Promotional in 1961, outfit 5764 ‘The Explorer’. This eclectic outfit, advertised in the dealer advance catalog of that year, featured the 0805 Radioactive Waste Car, 0337 Operating Giraffe Car, 0319 Operating Helicopter Car, and 0841 caboose. Unlike the previous year’s promotional outfit, this was a complete outfit furnished with track and transformer.

For 1962, Lionel once again opted not to include the 0605 in any catalog outfits, but did once more offer it as a component of a General Release Promotional: Outfit 15708 ‘The Celestial’. This was a space-and-military outfit through and through, and included the 0349 Turbo Missile Car, 0319 Operating Helicopter Car, 0333 Operating Satellite Launching Car, and 0827 illuminated Safety First caboose.

This list of outfits is not comprehensive, it is just the outfits that I am aware of the existence of. There may well be other undocumented promotionals which contained the 0605, or this may be the full list. These are just the ones I know of.

Next up, we will have a look at the 0605’s inner workings, and a few other points of interest.

-El

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Part III!

While I had the 0605 out and was photographing it, it occurred to me that it was worth showing off what is ‘under the hood’. The chassis is of diecast metal construction. The steam chest and pilot are separate plastic parts, and are secured to the chassis via a shared screw.


Of note here, Lionel manufactured the 0605 with two types of motor. In 1959, Lionel used the no. 0605-45 motor. Unfortunately, Lionel’s 1959 motors left something to be desired performance wise. It was bad enough that by 1960 Lionel had revised their design, issued new part numbers, and encouraged service stations to upgrade or replace the old motors. The 1960 revised motor for the 0605 was part no. 0605-202. As can be seen, my 0605 has the revised motor.

The presence of a 1959 style motor can help date a Lionel HO model to that year, but the opposite is less so since Lionel service stations were supplied with the later motors, to make repairs to 1959 locomotives.

Looking at the underside of the chassis, we can see a more reliable clue that this is a 1960 or later piece.


Locomotives produced in 1959 were equipped with 0766-5 couplers and 0605-39 coupler covers, which had a large hole in the middle to accept a pin on the chassis. In 1960, the locomotive was revised to accept the new 0565-61 “pin up” coupler, and a new coupler cover was used, 0605-64, which does not have the hole in the middle. This was consistent with changes made to the entire HO line, as 1959 models using the 0766-5 coupler were re-designed to accept the 0766-51 ‘pin down’ and 0565-61 ‘pin up’ couplers.

Removing the bottom cover plate from the locomotive, we can get a look at more of the mechanism from the underside.



The 0605, like many Lionel HO models from the 1959-1962 period, used a curious hybrid of a rubber belt and a worm gear to transmit torque from the motor to the wheels.
You can see the black rubber ‘O’ ring belt on the plastic pulley located in the middle of the worm shaft.

You may feel inclined to scoff at this design choice, but before you judge Lionel so harshly, it’s worth considering that at the time, Athearn had recently come out with their ‘Hi-F’ drive, which consisted of nothing more than rubber bands that transmitted torque directly from the motor shaft to the locomotive axles. They were unrealistically quick on their feet, but did offer smooth, quiet running. In fact, it was this very drive that was in every new HO model Lionel sold in 1958, when Athearn was supplying the line. Now, on the other hand, worm gears have long been advantageous for achieving smoother running at more realistic speeds, not to mention giving models better torque in a small space. Lionel’s engineers must have thought that surely, by combining rubber belts with a worm drive, they were creating the ultimate drive system.
Unfortunately, while it may have been a good idea on paper, there were a few flaws. Perhaps a subject for another time!

The 0605 is one of a limited number of HO items that received an exploded parts diagram for the Lionel service manual:

One last remark on the 0605, is to mention an ‘oddity’ shown in the 2nd edition of Greenberg’s Guide to Lionel HO: 1957-1966. Under the section on unusual pieces and forgeries, an 0605 is shown which was decorated differently from usual, having the 0605 stamped higher up on the side of the cab, and “Lionel” spelled out below it, where the number is normally found on regular production 0605s.


The book offers no insights into this unusual piece, besides that it exists. One has to wonder exactly how many are out there, when, and why they were made. I had never seen or heard of one until I saw this picture.

-El

Service Manual Pages are from the Olsen’s Toy Train Parts diagram library.
Unusual 0605 picture & caption from Greenberg’s Guide to Lionel HO 1957-1966 (2nd Edition)

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I wonder if it was a salesman’s sample or possibly produced for the Toy Fair? We may never know unless something surfaces from the Lionel archives.

Becky, this is an interesting possibility. According to the book, this unusual piece has heat-stamped lettering. Afaik, typically Lionel’s mock-ups and prototypes were decorated with decals. But there is an exception to every rule, so who knows? There definitely were HO prototypes shown at Toy Fair, and used for catalog illustrations.
On that note, I have not yet seen a catalog illustration of the 0605 that shows anything like this odd piece- though most years, it was illustrated incorrectly, with a weird pilot and the cab number centered on the cab side, rather than set low. Maybe someone with copies of advance catalogs or other publications can find a trace of the “Lionel” version.

A remaining consideration is the box, if it is original. The shown box has a -1 suffix. Some Lionel HO pieces had this suffix on the box, but can also be found in boxes without the suffix. If it were known when Lionel started/stopped using the boxes with the -1 suffix, that could help date pieces like this one.

From reading my copy of the Authoritative Guide to Lionel’s Promotional Outfits 1960-1969, I know that Lionel typically used a -1 suffix internally to denote items packaged in individual boxes (with some exceptions). I suspect this is where the -1 suffix came from, as most if not all of the -1 boxes I’ve seen for HO items, were for items that Lionel never advertised with a -1 suffix.

-El

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I am officially the proud new owner of an 0365 Minuteman!
Saw this car up for auction on eBay. It had some issues, but still had the roof.


The typical eBay price for a complete car (that is, one that is complete with roof, missile, and all launcher parts) can be anywhere from $50 to $100 depending on condition and how hot the bidding was. That’s too high for me! My car had a low starting bid, so I settled on the most I’d pay for it, and placed a bid. I was pleasantly surprised when I won, and again when it arrived this morning, 2 days after it shipped!








Net cost was $20, about half of that is shipping and taxes. I got it pretty cheap.

This car was introduced in 1962, and stayed in the Lionel catalog through until the end of the HO line in 1966. That said, after 1963 it was relegated to the separate sale section of the catalog, alongside all the other HO space & military items that remained. I’m skeptical they were still making them by that point, it seems more likely that Lionel was just trying to move inventory.

-El

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I spent a considerable amount of time today, attempting to improve the condition of my new 0365. While it is a longer term goal to have it fully operational, in the short term I just wanted to improve the condition of the car enough that it can display well, and be used as a piece of rolling stock. But while I was at it, I figured I’d at least get the raising mechanism for the launcher working right too.
Getting the car apart was a slight puzzle, I had to do things in a specific order to be able to remove the roof and the mechanism. As you can see, the mechanism prevents one of the roof hinges from being flexed inwards for removal.


I had to start by removing the phillips head screw on the bottom

Once the screw was out, I released the missile trigger latch on the bottom, and was able to slide the launcher mechanism forward. At this point, the roof still obstructs removal of the mechanism. But now I could remove the roof!

Once the roof was off, I could remove the launching mechanism out through the top of the car.

Here we can see a closer look at the launcher, in it’s “armed” position, and it’s fully raised position. Note that, like most examples, my launcher is broken- the end of the white plastic launch guide held a pin that would act as a stopper for the missile launcher. Over time, firing the missile would stress the plastic to the point of failure. The launcher and launch spring would then go flying as well, every time the missile was launched!


Note as well, the metal reduction gears in the mechanism. In action, they act to manage the speed at which the launcher is raised, fulfilling the same purpose as the rubber diaphragm on the O gauge 3665 Minuteman. These gears were also used for the same purpose inside the launching mechanism of the 3619.

I finished breaking down the 0365 into its components, so that I could clean everything thoroughly. Here’s the full spread:

Most of the cleaning went smoothly. The roof has been a little stubborn. And speaking of the roof being stubborn, the biggest pain was fixing that warp that you might be able to notice in my previous post! A lot of careful work with a heat gun went into fixing that. It’s not 100% perfect, but it’s pretty close at this point and I’m nervous about pushing my luck.

-El

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And here’s where we’re at now! The car is much cleaner than it was before, the roof is on pretty straight, all bearings and pivots have been lubricated appropriately, and some unbroken couplers have been fitted.







I am fortunate enough to have an appropriate 0319-42 trip for actuating the car. I took two short videos demonstrating the actuation of the car. Note that, as designed, the missile is actually used to open the roof during the launch. Otherwise it won’t open fully and the mechanism gets stuck on it! I had to improvise a “missile” to make the roof open for me.

Because my launcher is missing the launch spring and bushing, we currently only get the ‘raising’ action, not any projectile firing.

-El

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