Alright, it’s about time I made a post about this.
Remembering my visit to the Massena NY show reminded me about the HO Lionel that fell into my hands, and an HO Lionel M&StL switcher that a fellow I had been talking with brought over to see if I could fix. I couldn’t fix his switcher, unfortunately- the behavior the motor exhibbited was clearly that of an armature with a burnt out winding.
The trains I went home with were in a lot of stuff someone left at the table I was helping with. There was only one locomotive, I need to check but it was an 0635 I believe. Unfortunately the thing is missing not only the motor, but the intermediate gearing that transmits power from the armature shaft to the drivers.
I was really excited to have an operating example of an HO Lionel set, but my hopes and dreams are dashed.
So, I come to the CTT forums in event perhaps someone can help enlighten me on something.
I had read that Lionel’s postwar offerings were almost entirely outsourced to other makes. Their little 0-4-0 diesels for example match the design of the Athearn ‘Husky’ switcher.
But here’s what perplexes me. Some of the equipment has Lionel corperation markings embossed into both plastic and metal parts. Does that mean Lionel actually made these items, or were they all outsourced?
Secondly, the motors and drive train used in the ‘Husky’ don’t look to me like anything Athearn used, despite having shells and designs that overall are dead ringers. The 0635 should have the same basic motor type (albeit different length shaft and gearing).
Exactly how much of Lionel’s HO lineup in the postwar years was produced by the Lionel Corperation? Did Lionel only make parts of some of their HO trains?
Fingers crossed for this one, but… was a somewhat identical locomotive to the Lionel pacific made by any other make? Is there, dare I say it, any hope of finding that missing intermediate gearing?
My best guess is m
As far as I know ALL Lionel HO products were outsourced. There were three companys they purchased from; Athern, Roco, and Rivarossi. Quality was reportedly quite good from all three.
Unfortunately that’s all I know about Lionel HO. HO’s never interested me at all.
I can be a bit snarky where HO’s concerned:
“HO=How Ordinary!” Needless to say I never say that to HO fans!
Not all: the copies of the operating accessories and most of components of the operating cars were made “in house”. For myself, the only one I have on my “0” layout is the #0145 Gateman since its size comes closer to “0” than “H0”.
I’ve often reflected on how so many model train companies took a stab at H0 at one time or another. Gilbert, Lionel, and Marx all produced H0 trains at one point, probably trying to read the market, and figure out what people wanted, and would sell.
Roco made quality trains- my N scale engines from the '70’s still run!
Tyco, which I grew up with, made operating cars as well.
Please post some pix when you get a chance !
Paul
There are some websites with the history of Lionel HO, including the manufacturers. Pretty interesting if you like model train history.
The present Bachmann Southern Pacific GS-4 4-8-4 dates back to the mid 1970s and was produced for Lionel for an “American Freedom Train” set sold in advance of the Bicentennial. Lionel also offered it in post war SP red and orange.
I obtained one of these SP units. Kader often sold off excess production to third parties, and I ended up with the GS-4 in an unmarked moulded white foam tray with just a sheet of plastic taped to the top to protect the model. No paperwork of any kind…
I subsequently purchased a plain black GS-4 from Bachmann (which came with full packaging) and it was clear that the body moulding was identical. The Bachmann chassis was a much later design with a die cast split chassis design, while the lionel chassis was plastic with a transverse motor driving the trailing coupled axle. I think Bachmann also sold the model with the plastic chassis earlier.
This GS-4 is still in production. The body was clearly based on Japanese built brass models from the 1960s, and falls far short of current models, but it is to scale and looks like the prototype.
Peter
At first I figured all Lionel HO was outsourced. What made me question it was the blurb on Lionel HO here. So presumably some in-house manufacture, but it does sound like very little.
I guess it just surprised me that even though Lionel didn’t make their HO line, the motors don’t look like any other make I’ve seen- my 0635 pacific doesn’t seem to match anything I saw when I looked up 4-6-2s made by Roco, Athearn or Rivarossi.
It makes me curious if while the manufacturing was outsourced, the models in some cases were exclusive to Lionel? But then again I’d expect to see the tooling have been used after Lionel Corp. was no more.
I understand your sentiments Flintlock, after I got into O and S, I turned my back on HO and never looked back. None of it had much of any interest to me whatsoever. I still kept the odd piece around but wasn’t too keen on it. As you say, “how ordinary!”. But whenever I saw something really weird, I had to have it if it was cheap. Like my Varney ‘L’il Raskal’, or the peculiar unbranded switcher engine I have somewhere.
Going to the Massena NY show gave me a run for my money, however. I was helping out a friend with displaying his HO layout, and after servicing some of his engines that wouldn’t run right, and then getting the Lionel HO in… I just started to think that maybe HO could be fun sometimes. It’ll never be able to r
Yeah, when I was a kid back in the Jurassic Period my friends had HO sets while I had Lionels. The HO sets left me cold, they just didn’t have the bodacious impact those big Lionels had and they seemed to derail all the time. In fairness they were probably cheap sets but as they say first impressions are lasting ones.
I have to confess, I did save some HO cars from my late brother-in-law “Big B’s” train hoard, eight Dairylea milk cars. He actually was an N Gauger, but I suspect he bought the cars since my father-in-law (and “Big B” himself for a while) worked for Dairylea. “B” never did anything with them though. So, I’m going to set up a little layout around our fiber-optic “Robo-Tree” this Christmas after picking up an engine and caboose at one of the upcoming train shows.
But that’s as far as my HO involvement’s going to go! [:D]
PS: Thanks for posting that Lionel catalog! Interesting!
I grew up with an HO set my parents got for me when I was 8. Looking back, they really did think well on it, they bought me a pretty fancy set instead of just getting me a basic one with a loop of track, an engine, and 3 cars.
That said, yeah, my experience with it involved a lot of derailing, cars uncoupling without me wanting them to, and stuff getting stuck because the track or the wheels needed to be cleaned. I grew up watching some of the “I love toy trains” videos put out by TM books & video, and always wanted the trains I saw in those videos. I didn’t really know for sure what they were called. But the HO was fun, and I played with it plenty. I got more engines and a couple cars. I bet I’d have had more fun if ‘horn hook’ couplers were still the norm. The knuckles were just very unreliable for a kid’s standards, and they were very easily broken. Several cars went ‘out of service’ because of this, and I had to run one of my engines backwards when the rear coupler broke.
Had fun, but as soon as I got my hands on some Lionel, the HO fell to the wayside in an instant. The lionel stuff was bigger, heavier, the couplers weren’t fragile, and they made lots of noise clattering down the track. All I had was MPC stuff originally, but even that was enough to tear me away from HO without a glance back.
[quote user=“Flintlock76”]
I have to confess, I did save some HO cars from my late brother-in-law “Big B’s” train hoard, eight Dairylea milk cars. He actually was an N Gauger, but I suspect he bought the cars since my father-in-law (and “Big B” himself for a wh
Thanks for the advice! I was thinking about a somewhat recent Bachmann product, I’ve got some of their N Gauge stuff (a sidetrack on my part, “Big B’s” malign influence) and the engines work pretty well. I haven’t heard anything bad about their HO equipment.
Don’t worry about me test running it! I’ll probably get an HO engine at one of our train club’s shows, and I built the test tracks, so I know they work!
I owned a few Bachmann HO engines when I was a kid. They were all great runners. Only one of them really withstood my usage over the years, but I recall they all ran real smooth and quiet. They were nicer models than an 8-12 year old was fully equipped to look after properly! As long as you’re not buying a Bachmann starter set engine, I doubt you can steer wrong.
I’ve heard fantastic things about Kato- but I believe their N gauge line is much bigger than the HO one.
I prefer my trains vintage, something about working on open frame motors is a lot more fun to me than stuff with DC can motors. but that’s entirely personal preference. As far as things go, the stuff they make now is just better for your typical modeler, offering better low speed control and all that good stuff.
Thanks for that nicer catalog scan, Rob! It’s gorgeous!
I didn’t get a good moment to snap pictures of the trains, will try again Wednesday perhaps. Tomorrow I’ve got other plans.
Stay tuned for further developments 
-Ellie
Gibert made HO trains before WW2 Possibly why Lionel tried OO Lionel stuff was made by Rivorassi Athearn and Hobby Town I have a fairly decnt Lionel HO collection (1/5 came from Madison Hardware before they closed in 1990)and representation of all three brands. Supposely J Cowen did not like HO and hence WHY it took so long for Lionel to consider it but essentially they were too late with too little when they did. They could not seem to grasp the market In addiion depite beating Lione by nearly 20 years Gilbert was not much better with their HO in terms of Marketing though they did make some quality items
And in te 70’s Lionel HO was also Bachmann wwho despite making plasticville buildings for some tim e began to make HO trains in early seventies
I was aware of Gilbert’s HO, I actually have an HO hudson. It’s not in great shape but I have hopes of someday buying the parts to make it a usable model. I didn’t realize they tried HO before WWII, or maybe I just forgot about it.
That’s what I keep reading. Though what I read in one place, was that Lionel used tooling acquired from hobbytown, not that hobbytown made the trains.
I have my doubts about some of the items being manufactured in whole by others, and suspect that perhaps some tooling or parts were provided to Lionel but maybe Lionel did final assembly on a number of items- and regardless, there were items which if not made by Lionel, were exclusive to Lionel.
For instance, the milk car seems like nothing that anyone else created- and the construction of it seems to be similar to Lionel O Gauge. All the equipment from my 5757 set has heat stamped lettering, which I haven’t really seen on any non-Lionel HO equipment.
There are certainly obvious examples of rebranded equipment- the 0272 New Haven is clearly a stock Athearn rubber band drive F unit. The Lionel HO cabooses are dead ringers for cars made by Roco*. The interior of the 0827 illuminated caboose features a socket and bulb that scream ‘Lionel’ which inclines me to think that Roco supplied Lionel with the tooling or just the plastic components, and Lionel decorated and assembled them. I don’t know, this is all just my own speculation.
From my research, Lionel went with OO for a couple reasons, one was at that time, we were on the cuff of decent motors in HO scale, but in slightly larger OO the motors were much better at that time. There also was a “pissing” match between JLC and the owner of Scale Craft, which was in competition with Lionel in the O and OO scale markets back in those prewar years. Lionels HO stuff runs good for its vintage. Compared to what we have today its crude and noisy but for its day it was pretty good. But, Lionel was king of O toy trains and the effort into the HO market was half hearted. JLC himself wasnt even really in the picture as much by the time HO came out. His son Lawerance was running the company by then. For those that have never held or seen a Lionel OO Hudson, the full scale version is a mini 700e, all diecast and just as detailed. When one remembers what year those were made, its amazing and a jewel of a model. The semi scale version is like a 773 postwar Hudson, still scale size but lacking the super detailing of the 700e. The 3 rail track has a 27" radius and the full scale Hudsons will run on it, makes an excellent table top Christmas layout!
I have more information! I was looking online for the Lionel HO service manual (no luck so far, if anyone knows where to find a copy I’d really appreciate it), and stumbled into a Greenberg book you can borrow from the online library at Archive.org. It answered a good few questions for me-
Apparently Rivarossi only produced products for Lionel in 1957, and generally they weren’t visually identifiable as Lionel, and had the word ‘rivarossi’ on them.
Lionel “broke up” with Rivarossi in 1958, switching to Athearn. It seems they had an arrangement for Athearn to produce equipment for Lionel, but Athearn also used those Lionel items in their own product line. There were a few weird exceptions, the Virginian rectifier’s shell apparently was Lionel tooling, not Athearn.
1959/1960 seems to have been the end of the deal with Athearn, and transition to Lionel producing their own product line entirely. Lionel bought the Hobbytown tooling from John English and started producing models based off of that tooling in 1959. Post Athearn arrangmement, Lionel sold some ‘clones’ of Athearn offerings (namely the ‘husky’ switcher). That might explain the different mechanism and slightly different tooling for the shell. Lionel corp also did create their own drives, hence why the motors don’t seem to resemble anything made by another manufacturer. It would seem all the HO operating cars were designed and manufactured by the Lionel Corperation.
Oddly enough I can’t see mention of Roco anywhere in the book, and considering the copyright was back in 1986 I don’t know how much of the info is right on the money… but it would certainly put some clarity on the inconsistencies I was feeling, in the narrative of “Lionel never made their own HO” versus the trains that had the Lionel name molded.embossed into them.
I definitely think that the Lionel offset cupola caboose is a dead ringer for a Roco model, perhaps the