Interesting reply. You have described exactly what I saw as a youngster. Not the three but the two way reverser. Bingo (prize is in the mail LOL)
Since most talk has been about Lionel and my brand was Marx. You explained, apparently Marx copied Lionel then Lionel improved the way to reverse.
Today I sketched a model of how to make my recollection of the “two way pendulum”. I like to DIY. If I do make one I will use it to activate turnouts. On the control panel I would have ONE pushbutton. Each touch of this button would “toggle” between main to divergent tracks. I daydream a lot. LOL
Thanks for you guys helpng out with MY investigation. regards mike endmrw0526252141
Yes. If you used the fixed voltage posts A & D you would get a straight 17 volts. Those are the screw (also called terminal) posts that you connect your wires to. If you look at the picture that shows my whole mad scientist rig, you can see that there are 5 terminal posts in an arch above the throttle and 4 on the bottom (2 on each side of the throttle). These are the lettered posts that correspond to the chart on the lower half of the instruction plate.
In the upper right rectangle on the plate is the chart for variable voltage using post “U”. I’m using posts A & U which gives me 17, 19, 21, 23 & 25 volts across the 5 taps that the throttle lever (it’s called the “switch” on the plate) sweeps from left to right in an arch. I keep the “switch” all the way to the right and the rheostat acts as an interrupt between the transformer and the positive (center rail) tab on the lockon.
I would say not quite, simply because while Lionel and Marx both had a ‘pendulum’ style unit, the Lionel version looked very different from the marx one. Lionel’s pendulum unit was huge, and set up with contact fingers on the rocking ‘pendulum’ which would wipe across a fixed plate with contacts mounted to it.
You can see pictures of a unit I worked on here: Lionel Pendulum Reverse Unit.
Marx’s design was compact, simple, and way, way cheaper to produce than any of Lionel’s automatic reverse units. American Flyer pretty much copied Marx’s design when they developed a 2-position unit for their trains around the late 1950s.
In my experience, the Marx units do tend to become ‘sticky’ with age (getting stuck in one position, and needing a thump on the locomotive body to dislodge it). I like to take them apart and clean them out thoroughly, which usually returns them back to a state of very good reliability.
I don’t think that you would have to build a two-position reverse unit. Such a component already exists and can be purchased for a pittance: an impulse latching relay. Head on over to Amazon and get yourself one for a few bucks.
“I don’t think that you would have to build a two-position reverse unit.,” El
Latching relays are cool and have their place. But that would not work as I described how to use the Marx E unit two position reverser. Activated when power is applied: one connection is made. Unpower and upon repower a different connection is made.
Push a momentary contact button. “Reverser” makes contacts for one direction of track switch. Track would have to be left in that position until the botton is pressed again. The reverser will make electrical contact (opposite the first) for the reverse activation of the track switch.
Back in the day. I took a coat hanger wire, 4" long. Bent the wire to have in the middle a “dimple” (bend down then immedately bend up and then right angle to match the beginning, dimple being only a 1/4"). Understand this is a straight wire with the dimple in the middle. I made two coils that when activated pulled the straight ends, either way. My track switches were manual. The “dimple” was placed in a hole bored in the plastic switch arm. Coils were held in place with JB Weld. It worked but was definately DIY. Couldn’t afford the electric/auto turnout.
One challenge I do have is two contacts for each throw of the reverser. I’ll figure out something. One is for coil to throw the turnout. The other contact is for a seperate circuit. Each track will be lit with a light to show which position the turnout is positioned. regards mike end0527252117
If I’m not mistaken, many latching relays have both NO and NC contacts. The wiring that sets the engine up to run ‘forward’ would probably be done with one set of contacts, probably by convention with the armature unlatched, and the wiring for reverse would be connected (and forward disconnected) by the time the latch engages.
This is of course more complex than a ‘latching relay’ whose only purpose is to hold contacts closed (or open) without solenoid power, with a mechanism analogous to a retractable ball-point pen…
The setup you describe is more or less exactly how “remote control” switches (aka turnouts) work, at least the sort that Lionel, American Flyer, and Marx made. A pair of coils, and a moving metal piece that slides inside them, which is connected to the switch points. Depending which coil you powered, the turnout would be thrown one way or another.
Lionel, Marx, and Flyer all used momentary switches to operate the turnout. For Marx, it was a pair of pushbuttons per switch. For Lionel and Marx, it was a lever that you pushed forward to throw the turnout one way, and pulled back to throw it the other way. The lever would make momentary contact at the extreme of its travel, to operate the coil.
Here’s a picture from an eBay auction, of what the Marx controller looks like:
Your interest in my situation is impressive. This turnout controller is exactly what I would have needed…IF I could have afforded the auto/electric turnout in the first place. My FIY, as described was due to economic necessity. LOL
As for the relays that you mentioned, maybe they would work. Still, I’m old school. Electrical, yes electronics no. Really scarey for me was the mention of optical fiber. While a teacher I taught about such as it (fiber optics) was just becoming a thing. You can see how old I am and a little bit more able to buy stuff, but part of the enjoyment is to DIY. I have tons of old Bell Telephone junk (to them, they had new).
I don’t want to bother Becky with questions, but her control center is replete with stuff. To me, what’s that for and this, etc. She did so, to a certain extent and I will digest that before more inquiry.
Before Firecrown I ONLY went to TRAINS and even at that ONLY went to General subject. Now the door has swung open to all this stuff of my past.
Thanks again for your help. regards mike endmrw0528251254
Matt Wilson reference your post in this thread 13/51. For answers I have numbered each # question.
On your picture, small transformer 2 knobs = what does each (#1 and #2) knob do? #3. Green shows power is on/ Red a short and circuit breaker opens until reset = green?
The big transformer to the right. Looks the same as smaller one. What are each (#4 and #5) of the two large knobs for? I am thinking the two small knobs at the top do same as answers #1 and #2.
Your layout looks nice. Of note are the turnouts electric activated. I have discussed (45/51 in this thread) my DIY mode, (crude) but it’s all I could afford in my youth. Regards mike endmrw0528252307
Reference your 36 and 37 post: I’m slowly getting how this works 36/51 is a “straight” transformer. Supply voltage, NO variableness. 37/51 is your explanation, GOT IT.
Now some questions please:
Reference post 12/51. Top left unit awaiting an answer from Matt Wilson…BUT are the two tubes (one standing up, the other laying down) electrical items ? #1. The left lower dark unit with one knob, #2 what function? It would seem the knife switch enables you to switch your layout from one power source or another. #3? The large Lionel xfmr seems simple enough, red arm is speed control. Yes/no #4. Upper right, gotta be a rheostat #5? Red buttons accessories. #6 ? And last, what is the green thing lower right #7?
Again 12/51 you said,…..”you can see that there are 5 terminal posts (is this my question #5) in an arch above the throttle”
I’m lost here …….“and 4 on the bottom (2 on each side of the throttle).”… UNLESS you are referring to the ….two terminal strips that accommodate wiring connections.
Understand this: …..In the upper right rectangle on the plate is the chart for variable voltage using post “U”. I’m using posts A & U which gives me 17, 19, 21, 23 & 25 volts across the 5 taps that the throttle lever (it’s called the “switch” on the plate) sweeps from left to right in an arch. I keep the “switch” all the way to the right and the rheostat acts as an interrupt between the transformer and the positive (center rail) tab on the lockon.
Thanks Becky for your getting me taught on how your “nice little unit” works. regards mike endmrw0528252318
On both transformers in my photo, the small Type R and the larger Type V, all knobs are throttle controls which can vary the AC voltage of separate output terminals. I use one output for some layout lights and another for power to the turnout solenoids. In that way, I can feed them the voltage I want, independently of the voltage that runs my trains.
The green light is a power on indicator. The red lights are warning lights if the circuit breaker would trip.
I don’t know either, most of the stuff in Amazon item titles (many of the descriptions have junk or are wrong too) can be ignored. A number of them contain garbage that doesn’t relate in the slightest even to the item! My guess as to what they mean about the “Isolation” is that it isolates the control electricity from the circuit it is controlling. The more I look at the darn thing, the more suspicious I am about it.
From what I can tell, controlling it involves whether or not there is power in the control line (it does need a constant power supply). While apparently it’s designed for digital control, from what the reviews say analog will work too.
It doesn’t matter, do what you prefer!
The S. Coils are for the solenoids are the turnout. The whole thing is controlled with a SPDT latching relay/reversing unit. If I were doing this (and if I had money, which I don’t ), I’d also use a capacitor discharge circuit which more or less would shut off power after a short while. Some folks brought up a time delay relay, which could do the same thing.
I hope it works out!
MP104 - I believe Optocoupler Isolation refers to a pairing of an optical emitter and receiver within a switching circuit. This basically means that the input is energizing a Light Emitting Diode (LED), which will put out light that will cause a phototransistor to conduct on the output side. This is all completely contained inside a chip. It is a common way to completely electrically isolate circuits in the electronics world. This is commonly called an opto-isolator.
Here is a Wikipedia article that explains it in more detail:
Optoisolation means using light-activated components (they used to be ‘electric eye’ type devices before there were fiber optics and then erbium doping and IR lasers) to isolate something from electrical interference or shock potential. There is very little reason to consider this for toy trains, although the underlying principle has been used for signal and crossing-gate actuation in layouts for many years.
To go with the original stereo FM Collins Radio transmitter at WPRB (1963!) was the infamous “Collins Board” for mixdown. This prominently featured ‘optó-isolator’ technology which provided a pure resistance to the audio chain when the pots were adjusted – no inductance from pot windings, etc.
As happened, one of the channels went dead, and we traced the problem to a dead ‘opto-isolator module’ – a beautiful spun-aluminum case with information in black enamel etch, helpfully plugged into an octal socket. This in 1975 cost $68, with the courier shipping to Newark Airport (no FedEx delivery in those days) and there was no choice but to pay to get that channel back on the air…
We actually placed the order, and were sitting around afterward when we decided "well, we’ve done all we can, and there’s no trade-in value on the old part, and we have undergrad electrical engineers on staff who might benefit from inspecting the space-age technology in the Opto-Isolator Module… so we carefully straightened the crimp and eased off that beautiful spun-aluminum shell, to reveal the wondrous tech inside…
… a 3-volt incandescent penlight bulb, soldered to two bare leads, pointing at a photo-Darlington similarly mounted. To add insult to injury, it was a threaded bulb.
After we stopped laughing hysterically, I went to Urken Supply, bought an equivalent bulb (yes, with threads), soldered it on, and replaced the can. It worked perfectly! Then came the fun when we cancelled the order with Collins… as soon as we mentioned that we had been able to open and fix it, they got very quiet and ran the refund without further discussion…