Hello All,
I am looking to upgrade my transformer and wanted to get some knowledgeable opinions on the matter. I am deciding between the Lionel KW and VW. I don’t hear much about the VW and didn’t find much in the forum on it, but wanted to know does anyone use the VW and what are their thoughts on it? Would you recommend a KW over the VW or vice versa? I want to be able to run two trains and a couple of switches so I don’t need anything with an enormous amount of wattage.
Thanks!
AceApe
Hello,
I’ve never used(or even seen, for that matter) a VW, but I did at one time own a KW and now use two of the functionally-identical ZWs.
Although the KW was my main transformer for about four years, I never really liked it, and was more than happy to replace it with a ZW.
Here are the main problems I have with the KW:
Almost always, moving one handle causes the other to move. In addition, the two handles are opposite of each other-one gets pulled toward you to increase the power, while the other is pushed away from you.
The KW has only one whistle control-you can only blow one whistle at a time.
And, finally, the biggest problem as I see it: the fixed voltage posts are useless for switches and any other accesory that shares a ground with the track. If you want to power you switches with a KW, you have to either use 6 volts, which is way too low, or 20 volts, which is way too high. You can only get a constant 14 volts out of a KW to an accesory that does not share a ground with the track.
By constrast, a VW or ZW will give you four indepently adjustable outputs. You can use the two outer handles for running trains, and then use one of the inner handles to operate your switches(dial in a setting that works well, and keep it there).
Given that you specifically mention switches, I’d say to write the KW off your list first thing.
Now, as far as a getting a VW-I’d suggest that you consider a ZW. It looks identical to the VW, but offers quite a bit more power. For what ZWs are selling for these days, one won’t cost you a whole lot more than a VW, and will offer a whole lot more power.
Here is a good example of why companies make different products. I love the KW.
Have you added up the power requirement of your trains, switches, and transformers? If so, compare that to the available continuous power of the transformers you are considering.
The VW is rated at 150 watts and can supply 110 watts of continuous power. With four throttles that comes out to 27 watts per throttle. The VW is rated at 8 amps.
The KW is rated at 194 watts and can supply 140 watts of continuous power. With two throttles that 70 watts per throttle. The KW is rated at 10 amps.
The ZW is rated at 250 watts and can supply 180 watts of continuous power. With four throttles that comes out to 45 watts per throttle. The ZW is rated for 14 amps.
Now you consider cost per watt, how many watts you need, how many trains you plan to run at once, how many throttles you need, etc.
Sometimes a ZW may not be the best choice. They cost more and you may not get the power distribution you need. One ZW gives you 180 watts of continuous power over four throttles. Two KWs give you 280 watts of continuous power over four throttles. What distribution of power is going to be the best match for your layout?
Here’s and example of how I calculated my power needs:
Trains:
I think if you factor cost, power,number of trains, the ZW is the way to go. I think a VW is not as common. I had to look it up. I have never seen one for sale. With a little shopping around you can get a good ZW unit.
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd2g.htm
Members who use this link are advised to read the generic link to “Transformers” at the top of the listing of specific transformers by number and alpha designations. Especially useful is the very last page of the generic “Transformer” section because it shows the various hook-up choices for many (if not all) of the postwar (and some prewar) transformers.
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Very good point-although I don’t like the KW, as you can tell from my posts, there are some folks for which it’s ideal.
One minor point, though. I often hear it mentioned that a Z/ZW can “only” give 45 watts per throttle, while a KW can give 70 watts per throttle.
With the way the larger Lionel transformers were designed, the total capacity of the transformer can be drawn from one throttle, or split up in any combination between the four throttles.
Let’s say that, for example, you have a small layout set up with two loops of track, two O22 switches, and a single ZW powering it.
The two O22s would draw about 15 watts all the time. This would leave about 165 watts that could be divided between the two throttles connected to the tracks. All of this could be put to one track, or could be divided between the two.
ben,
Your description of how older Lionel transformers allocate power is correct where you state that all the power is available to any single post, as long as there is nothing else connected to another post with which the transformer has to “share” power.
However, as I understand it, the Lionel pre- and postwar transformers were rated on their input power, rather than what they could put out. The output power is perhaps 70% of input power; therefore a KW, rated at 190 watts, will only put out approximately 130 watts total, regardless of how many terminals are in use. If one terminal is using 30 watts, there are only 100 watts left for other items.
Modern-era Lionel transformers put out their rated power, generally stated as volt-amps rather than watts, although the distinction is pretty much academic. Right?
Ben,
Thank you for clarifying watts per throttle. I did not do a good job of explaining that in my previous post when I used the phrase.
Oh, the current MRC Pure Power Dual is a nice tranformer to consider. 270 watts of sustained power, two throttles, and 14 volt accessory lugs.
Chris
Hello Birds,
WOW! Thank you for the detailed info. I hadn’t done the math. By my calculations, I need 114.4-120 watts to run two trains with cars and a pair of switches. Although I really like the look/functionality/reputation of the zw, my layout doesn’t need that much power. I figured I could get the same look with the vw at a lower cost. Now that I think about it, I don’t need the 190 Watts of power from the kw either. My layout can’t really grow much more due to space right now so, for the moment, I am kind of stuck. I hadn’t heard of the vw either until last week. I was just wondering if there was a reason for that[%-)]
Thanks!
Barney
Barney,
According to your calculations the VW would be a little under powered. It puts out 110 watts continuous.
A ZW might be a great fit for you with 180 watts of continuous power and four throttles. Some extra power is always nice to have as a buffer. You would be able to control two trains on two throttles, the third throttle could be used to set the voltage for the turnouts. The fourth throttle could be used down the road if you wanted to add street lights, etc
Good luck!
Chris
Hello Chris,
I am gonna bite the bullet and go for the ZW. Can you tell me what is the most you would pay for a ZW? I see them on ebay with a buy it now ranging from $190-$295. I was told that the later riveted model is the best.
Thanks,
Barney
Barney,
Sent you and e-mail and a PM. Post if you do not receive them.
Chris
Not 100% positive but I think the VW may even be lacking the whistle button, for sure it don’t have that much power, you would be better off buying a post war ZW.
Lee F.
Lee,
The Lionel Types V and Z transformers did not have integral whistle buttons; the Types VW and ZW each had two. That’s what the “W” stood for.
I have a VW, ZW, and KW, One thing about the VW that looks cool is the orange whistle/direction throttle and the black speed throttle. But thats about it, it has quirks about it that some people may not know, when the train is at low throttle and you activate the whistle your knuckles crash together making it an akward transformer to run trains with. Also the hook ups are kind of strange. It has multiple fixed voltage outputs up to 15 V but most of my switches take 16v to activate. If you put two of them together you have to much voltage (30v) and can burn your lamps up, so I use the throttle for 0-18v for my track switches and the multiple fix 15v outputs for lamps and related accessories. The KW is a good low price transformer that puts out more voltage 22v but I believe less amps? Not sure about this, but I know I can run only 2 trains on a good sized layout and they run at a higher rate of speed than the VW. If your are into running multiple trains conventionaly with 22 V required than the ZW cannot be beat, prices are supprisingly low right now, the look and feel of a ZW throttle makes it the number one choice in running trains. The only downfall is the whistle activation button seems to wear out resulting in an open circuit, this will change the direction of the train when you least expect it. But I just add a couple of sound activation buttons for the whistle and bell and save the transformer the wear.
I guess if your a collector the VW is cool to have (the SW too), otherwise go for the ZW if you want to run many trains on multiple throttles for a reasonable price.
J. Daddy,
Are we talking about the same Lionel Type VW? It doesn’t sound like it to me. You are describing a TW, maybe…?
Also, I have never seen a KW that would put out an honest 22 volts on ordinary 120-125 volt house current either; although the KW does have a little bit more power than a VW, according to the Lionel Service Manual.
The VW doesn’t have any fixed voltage outputs. It functions just like, & is nearly indistinguishable from, the 1948-1949 ZW albeit with a 150 watt rating(~110 watts continuous as mentioned above). Same whistle & direction controls as the ZW.
Rob
Doh! escuse the brain lapse, you are correct… don’t have the VW… have the TW, thanks for the brain check!