I’ve used and been in discussions about the two new control systems, Lionel’s Base3 and the MTH WTIU. I’m wondering your thoughts about these systems. According to our reader surveys, the majority of CTT readers still use “traditional” controls via a transformer. But in the last survey we did, the percentage of folks using a digital system and/or the app started to increase.
Here are my experiences–
The Base3 gave me and Bob Keller a lot of grief when we set it up and took around 2 hours to figure out. (We learned that the system doesn’t like MTH transformers and didn’t respond on Bob’s iPad but did on my iPhone.) This was after reading the online information and watching videos ahead of time. That being said, once it was up and running it was a great system. I love that it uses Bluetooth and the app is easy to use.
The WTIU was very easy to set up in comparison, but it didn’t like my iPhone but somehow worked fine on Lucas Iverson’s phone instead. I am disappointed that the remotes will need to be tethered (once the cables are available from MTH). There were some problems using ZW transformers but MTH has already responded with a firmware update for the unit.
Both Lionel and MTH have been responsive to our emails and questions, and I appreciate that. Whenever there is new technology there will be bumps and sometimes things don’t work smoothly at first.
Do you plan to buy one of these units? Do you find them intimidating to use and will steer clear? Let’s discuss.
I’m confused. What does the BASE3 have to do with MTH transformers?
I get the CAB3 issues, that app is buggier than a roach motel, but the BASE3 using the CAB1L or CAB2 works just fine. It took me five minutes to set it up, and I’m totally confused about the comment about MTH transformers. I know Several people using the BASE3 and the MTH Z4000 transformer, they’re having no problems.
Don’t confuse the BASE3 with the CAB3 app, they’re two totally different entities. I have high hopes that Lionel will get their act together with the CAB3 and finally get a working application.
John, there’s something about the type of power put out by the Z-4000 that doesn’t play well with the Lionel products. It’s something about the type of power it puts out (more of a wave than a steady arc). I suppose it could have been the locomotive we used. In testing over the past 18 months, there were some engines that wouldn’t operate unless I switched over to our ZW-L.
Troubleshooting like this can be frustrating, as anyone whose set up any tech device knows. However, MTH and Lionel can still release firmware updates to fix problems.
I have not used the CAB3 app. Hope they can get that resolved soon.
I know a host of large clubs and individual layouts that would disagree with you. Folks like the NJ-HR club run their entire operation on a bunch of Z4000 transformers, I’ve never see or heard of any issues running Lionel equipment with them. I’ve been there many times running a variety of equipment, virtually all of it Lionel Legacy, never had any sort of problem.
The Z4000 outputs a pure sine wave-similar to classic Lionel variable tap transformers.
I don’t have a scope photo handy, but if you were to plug a scope probe into an outlet(never do that unless you have the correct probe and know exactly what you’re doing), an old Lionel transformer like a ZW, a Lionel Powerhouse(which is just an iron core transformer with no regulation electronics) or a Z4000, you’d see something like this
The height(amplitude) will vary based on the voltage, but the shape will remain the same, and for any of the above mentioned train transformers, the frequency will also stay the same.
Most modern Lionel transformers pay less regard to the waveform. Here’s a late 1990s Lionel “Powerstation” controller(fed by a 135W PowerHouse) at part and full throttle
Note that at part throttle, the output has a sort of “sawtooth” waveform, while at full throttle it’s a bit more like a sort of distorted/truncated sine wave. It may be difficult to read on the display, but the peak voltage is the same between part and full throttle-it just gets there quicker, falls faster, and spends more time at zero.
Most Lionel modern power supplies(save for using the Powerhouse directly to the track) use a similar waveform. The CW-80, New ZW, PowerHouse, and TPCs all do(I haven’t checked the ZW-L, GW-180 or Legacy PowerHouse). Incidentally, I was looking at the output of a first generation Lionel TMCC board(LCRU) controlling an open frame motor the other day, and it actually uses a similar scheme, although it gets REALLY ugly when what it’s being fed isn’t a pure sine wave.
Note also that I have my scope set to report the RMS voltage. When we talk about AC “voltage” the RMS is actually what we care about. A lot of cheap multimeters, especially digital, assume a sine wave and won’t actually read out the voltage correctly from these. If I had one of the HP bench meters in these photos connected, it would read the correct RMS voltage, but unless your meter is specifically marked “True RMS” it won’t be accurate. When I started in the hobby, true RMS meters were exotic and expensive.
Electronically this is simpler to implement. I also find it has some advantages for low speed operation, especially with open frame motors, as the motor is getting hit with full voltage intermittently rather than a modulated lower voltage. It’s something of an electric “impact wrench.”
It’s been a long time since Lionel has made a variable voltage pure sine wave transformer(unless there’s something going on in the new ZW-L I don’t know about-I haven’t looked at this close enough to know). Lionel products have never had a problem with the unusual waveforms, although they’re also fine with a pure sinewave. TMCC was designed from the beginning to run off either things like an old postwar ZW(which is a variable tap iron core transformer-it gives nothing but a pure sine wave) or the then current products like the Powerstation-PowerHouse I show above or the PowerMaster.
On the other hand, going back 20+ years, I’ve been reading about issues with MTH trains and anyhting but pure sine wave transformers. I’ve never owned an MTH locomotive, so forgive me for not knowing specifics, but I seem to remember it REALLY showing up with MTH around the time PS2 came out, and basically the recommendation was an MTH transformer, a Powerhouse directly to the track(if you just needed constant voltage) or an old Lionel transformer…
Thanks for those! I’d wanted to do more but also hadn’t gotten around to it. I also made the mistake of NOT testing under load, which as you’ve shown would change it.
And I really should use the scope screen capture software. It took me enough messing around to get it to work for my ~35 year old scope that I should use it more.
I have more playing to do, although probably nothing that others haven’t done before either.
I’m surprised a 35 year old 'scope has screen capture capability, at least the ones that hobbyists have. Mine were taken by a pretty old digital 'scope, I have since traded up to a Rigol DS1104Z+ 4-trace model with a logic analyzer attachment for my design work.
Here’s some MTH TIU output waveforms I captured more recently.
Channel 1 Transformer output full throttle (MRC AH-501)
The beauty of 35 year old equipment is that a lot of “real” places consider it functionally obsolete, so a hobbiest can buy for example a 400mhz dual channel Hewlett-Packard DSO for less than what a new similarly capable Rigol or Siglent would cost.
It has an HP-IB interface on the back, something that both my good HP multimeters also have. I have an NI USB-IEE4888 adapter connected to my iMac that’s to the right of my workbench(my main computer both for working from home for my day job, and some hobby uses like photo sorting/editing). HP-IB Mac support has always been weak, but a Windows 10 virtual machine solves a lot of problems.
With the current NI and Agilent/Keysight IO libraries installed, all the early 90s HP test gear actually plays nice in a Windows 10 VM with the NI adapter. I was surprised at that, as I’m no stranger to HPIB in lab situations(I’m a chemistry professor in my day job, an analytical chemist by training, and cut my teeth plus built the current instrument lab at my school around HP-IB interfaced Hewlett Packard GCs, GC-MSs, and UV-Vis) but things like an HP gas chromatograph or mass spectrometer will only work via HP/Agilent branded interface cards or adapters.
With the scope, if I actually knew HP Basic, I’d be able to run a lot of it through the NI console in Windows. Since I don’t know it, I’m limited to one older program-still downloadable from Keysight but I’m pretty sure old enough to be Agilent branded-that can grab a screen capture over HPIB but that’s it.
So that’s a long way of saying that yes, it can do it, but it’s pretty limited. It’s still a better way to show what’s going on than a photo of the CRT, though.
Good point about the age of the equipment. I do have an ancient Fluke bench meter and an equally ancient HP frequency counter that I still use. I just retired a 50+ year old HP bench power supply when the caps dried up, I decided that a second round of replacement caps was probably not warranted since I have suitable replacements.
I am a retired avionics design engineer, so I was used to using the latest and greatest equipment, it is quite a comedown once you don’t have that access.
Mine were taken by a pretty old digital 'scope, I have since traded up to a Rigol DS1104Z+ 4-trace model with a logic analyzer attachment for my design work.
