As I get close to ballasting my classification yard…
I’ve sifted Home Depot’s Paving Sand into fine medium and coarse and then run a magnet through it. I know that there is “some” magnetic material in it, but have to say that it was shocking how much! I’d say, on average that about l teaspoon to 1 tablespoon’s worth had had anywhere from 30-50% iron based material.
The dilemma is that I really really like the look of this potential ballast and ground cover, but wondered if the amount of magnetic material is about average or really high?
If you’ve used decomposed granite (paving sand) as Paul Scoles’ DVDs show, have you felt that your locomotives have been perfectly safe in use after removing the magnetic particles? It seems like there just HAS to be a “tich” left no matter how carefully and repeatedly one runs a magnet through it…
Is it true that this is much less of a concern with can motors as opposed to the older frame motors?Is it worth the paranoia (for years) to use organic rock ballast?
Do commercial, real rock ballast companies like Highball and Arizona Rock and Mineral, do anything special to remove THEIR magnetic materials? (Something more high tech than running a magnet through a pile of sand/decomposed granite? Should I be able to do as good of a job at home?
Would you feel comfortable using decomposed granite if after running a magnet through it to the point where you didn’t seem to be picking anything up anymore? I realized that vacuuming up after laying the material to catch any stray/loose particles is part of the job.
I’ll use Woodland Scenics if I have to, but real rock just looks so much better to my eye.
I have to say that I have never “worried” about it. Our club layout has several low slung flat cars that carry rare earth magnets on their bottoms to continually pick up magnetic junk left over.
I would say of course it is. With the older frames the armatures were right there exposed to anything near by. With a can motor the armature is inside of an enclosure. Another big change is there used to be a whole lot more open space on the bottom of the locomotive than there is with modern equipment. Less space for those magnetic particles to get up into the magnet. Our club has always used natural rock ballast. I’ve got a few locomotives that probably have 100s maybe 1000s of hours run on that track (23 years worth) that don’t seem to have suffered from it.
The technique you describe for ballast has been around for many years in the narrow gauge area of the hobby. Myself, all of my friends, and many others I know of in the hobby, use real dirt and materials similar to what Scoles describes in his DVDs for ballast and ground cover. The trick here is to glue it down. Very little will escape. Collectively we have been running on this type of ballast for many, many years with zero problems with iron in locomotive motors.
The ballast in this shot (not done yet) is sifted dirt. While it may look loose, It is glued down and is rock solid.
The ballast and ground cover here is a variety of sifted dirt and other rock materials that I gathered from the mountains. All glued down solidly (shown without the finish coat of dirt etc).
A lot of the scenery in the Gazette uses natural materials gathered from the wild. I say go for it and don’t look back…
I do the natural materials route myself for many things. Narrowgauge, too, which may have something to do with that. [:)]
But I’d be very cautious of any ballast that has considerable or even observable magnetic material in it. Even if everything’s glued down and you’ve gone through it carefully with a strong magnet, nothing’s perfect.
Proper ballast without ferrous materials can be found with some looking. Best to play it safe IMO.
I’m feeling really torn. I am finding a ton of ferrous material and I have to say that it IS makining me nervous.
I will see if I can find a similar decomposed granite without so much or preferably any magnetic material in it. It seems impossible to find any with none, simply due to the fact that the rock crushing machinery will leave some flecks…
I keep thinking about that fleck or two that will someday get knocked loose on the layout as it’ll be an operations sessions based layout eventurally.
I was wondering if anyone has come up with a de-gaussing 'zapper" or if the commercial real rock companies use anything like that.
Does anyone know if Scenic Express’ newest (their own brand) real rock ballast is completely non-magnetic? I’ll give them a call but may not get ahold of anyone until Mon.
It is sounding like most folks here have had no issues whatsoever over the years so that is encouraging.
I’d go to W.S. walnut shell in a flash except that it takes so much dry brushing or air brushing to make it look realistically natural (to my eye, anyway) that it’s my last resort.
If one had a problem with some particles getting into the motor how would one remove them?
Plucking them off with a non-magnetic pair of tweezers?
As I continue my reading and speaking with other layout owners, I just stumbled across an interesting post:
This morning I read through some other forums and saw that someone posted that he’d found quite a bit of magnetic particles in his Woodland Scenics walnut shell ballast.
More than in his particular variety of collected sand/granite!
Normally I’d be dubious of that claim but having just recently read about grinder/cutter particles making it’s way into paving sand I could see that as a (remote?) possibility.
This was only one person’s post on one forum so only experimentation would confirm this… anyone with an open bag or jar care to play around with this?
In the past, when I had some W.S. I never even thought to give this a try. Thought that, even the notion, might be of some interest here…
Just ran a strong magnet through a bag of gray Woodland Scenics ballast I had laying around and there isn’t even the tiniest bit of iron on the magnet. Or at least, not visible …
Thanks Byron, for checking. As I said, I was dubious. Another internet rumor/myth put to rest.
I’ll give Scenic Express a call on Monday to see what they say about their rock ballast.
I have decided to abandon my prized decomposed granite/paving sand for now. It has an insane amount of ferrous material. I’m beginning to suspect that ALL of those nicely hued browns are really, simply, iron.
I’ll see if I can’t find some bins of sand at a local quarry/stone dealer to run a magnet through. I don’t mind picking SOME magnetic material out, but with this particular bag of pavers sand I’ll be at it until Haley’s Comet returns!
Thanks Byron, for checking. As I said, I was dubious. Another internet rumor/myth put to rest.
I’ll give Scenic Express a call on Monday to see what they say about their rock ballast.
I have decided to abandon my prized decomposed granite/paving sand for now. It has an insane amount of ferrous material. I’m beginning to suspect that ALL of those nicely hued browns are really, simply, iron.
I’ll see if I can’t find some bins of sand at a local quarry/stone dealer to run a magnet through. I don’t mind picking SOME magnetic material out, but with this particular bag of pavers sand I’ll be at it until Haley’s Comet returns!
Sand is like bread. The average American thinks there’s just soft white bread, but you’re just getting started. Try to find package sand from a different supplier. In certain areas, that’s hard to do because everything comes from the same pit. The market is strongly influenced by transportation costs. However, it may be worth it to check around.
I’ve seen iron in sand before; lots of sand out there with little or no iron, but yours sounds like an extreme case. That’s why I was shying away from it. It might have been a dip from the bottom of a patch where all the heavy stuff settled out, for instance.
Radon gas can be found in decomposed granite and since it is “radioactive” there is some health concern with long-term exposure in confined areas. I’ve seen Radon Gas Test Kits advertised for general home use but I’ve never used one myself.
Wow. One never knows where these theads will go. My train room is narrow with no windows or ventilation so far, other than the entry door. Being out west I never gave Radon a thought (although I’m originally form back East).
Not sure I still would, but more info. would be good to see. Typical of hobbyists everywhere we worry more about the condition of our motive power than ourselves-much like a biker who after a head over heels spill, will lst ask people running to their aid, “Is the BIKE ok?” before considering whether or not they can still wiggle their fingers and toes![;)]
Radon is a serious thing. Dad’s house in Pennsylvania is built on a rocky hill, and he has radon. Treated the house for it, put in the correct monitors and equipment. It has never gotten into the dangerous levels, but it is higher in winter when the ground is frozen.
My brother NEVER checked his house (his wife died of leukemia–relationship unknown). He only found out about it when he sold the house and the test was required.
Tests are cheap, the fix isn’t bat either. Enclosed ground or basement rooms are most likely to give trouble.
We were shocked by the radon thing moving from coastal California to Colorado. I had heard about radon in New England, but never thought about elsewhere. Quickly discovered and concluded that unmitigated houses in Colorado Springs either had unacceptable levels of radon in the basement, or had never been tested. Pulled out of the 1st house we contracted for because of the radon issue (our realtor insisted on testing with young kids moving in). 2nd house had even higher levels. Did some research on radon and radon mitigation, went back to the 1st house, and negotiated a price reduction for the cost of a mitigation system.
Mitigation system - consists of a fan and upspout which pulls a slight vacuum on the perimeter drain - reduced the radon levels to the level of the outside air. It took 1 day to install, cost $1400 for an upgraded - better enclosed and quieter fan - system. Never know it’s there and working unless I look at the ammeter in the motor circuit. Peace of mind is fabulous.
Many years ago I read about using “decomposed granite” on the layout. I searched and searched for it, and no one knew where I could get some. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that it is also known as “builders sand”. Is this correct?
That was me (I think) as that’s what I planned on using. It’s called Pavers’ Sand. It’s meant for placing around and under paving stones. It’s sometimes called things other than sand but Paver is always in the name.
Home Depot (where Paul Scoles ) gets his carries it. I believe Lowes and others will also.
It will NOT say decomposed granite on the bag in some case.
Unfortunately I learned the lesson (hence this threat) that running a magnet through it comes BEFORE carefully sifting into 3 grades!!!
Obviously in bagged form this will not be possible before purchase but you’d only be “out” about $4 and if you happen to have old paving stones in your garden it can still be used.
Beware though: Some of these paving sands have an additional cement or grout like material added. Be sure to read the bag at the store carefully.
I will try my local sand and gravel and stone mason supply yard next, hoping that they will have open bins to wisk a magnet through.
I’d hate to see your project become frustrating due to using a subpar product like Woodland Scenics ballast. Try a real rock ballast like Scenic Express, Arizona Rock or Smith & Sons before using WS. The savings in aggravation due to ease of gluing is well worth it.
WP, do you know if Arizona Rock or Smith % Sons have magnetic free rock ballast?
Did you have to remove much with a magnet? What percentage do you think was magnetic?
I realized after receiving my Scenics Express catalog today that they do not have color I’m looking for.
I’d hate to pay all that shipping and still get enough magnetic material (Ariz. or Smith) to make it a real chore like the Pavers Sand was. It’s not like I can send it back at $6 shiipping ea. (Scenic Express’) as an example.
I haven’t encountered magnetic particles with either of these, and I know others who have used both with no or negligible magnetic material found.
Here’s my confession: I’ve used LOTS of natural materials for ground cover and ballast in over three decades of modeling. I have never once checked any of the ones I’ve dug myself with a magnet, and never once had a problem caused by magnetic material getting into a locomotive. Mostly I’ve used sand, limestone and shale (not granite) obtained from highway excavations and such, and haven’t purchased any sand or other natural dirt products from a home center, so I can’t speak to what they may contain.
