Gary, if I am remembering right, aren’t you are building a 7.5" gauge steamer? [:D] I think that puts us firmly in the same camp! Anyway, thanks for posting the M10000 motor pictures - it is much easier to see the housing for the wheel governor with the motor out of the body. How about a picture of the entire “snake”?
For anyone that has never dealt with a wheel governed Marx clockwork, it is readily apparent why Marx quickly changed to the one inside the motor… the wheel governors don’t work very good! The locomotives tend to run too fast, flying off in the curves; this can be mitigated to an extent by coupling up a longer train and/or not winding the motor as tight, but it still doesn’t fix the basic issue. The newer motors with the internal governor have gears that spin the gov faster than the drive axle, making it much more effective at keeping the speed in check. Also, as Gary mentioned, the wheel governors can have problems running through switches with guardrails, just like the Marx “fat wheel” single reduction electric motors… but I’ll defer to those who know more about the electrics to post pictures and explanations of that.
I noticed that the 7" tin has been mentioned twice, but no pictures yet… Jason and Mike, I would love to see photos of what you have. I only have 3 pieces of 7" tin, just enough to make a train for my lone 994 reversing clockwork.
i will admit i’m acting more as the general contractor, but yes, i’m working on getting a Jim Kreider design, 1½" scale Berkshire on the rails optimistically by late 2013. just passed the first major milestone of running on air with quite a bit of work already done on the boiler, so thing are progressing well.
as an operator, i might consider us both as enthusiastic, but i’ve seen your “project” locomotives, James, and hands down you win on that basis. …of course if i ever get a backyard, watch out!
one project i keep pushing back is getting a large photo booth constructed so i can get a good solid background for some complete train shots, but it seems like whenever i get a space cleared out, some other project creeps into the ‘picture’ and claims the real estate. i will try to get a picture of at least the components to that M10000. you can probably tell by the condition of the motor that the train is in fantastic condition.
for now, how about a few boxtops, the first being that early M10000…
early M10000 box - red clockwork set
this is one of my favorite Marx graphics taking advantage of both the newly introduced M10000 alongside a Commodore Vanderbilt. with just a touch of artistic license. certainly a bit more detailed than the followup…
Gary, congratulations on getting the Berk chassis running on air… it is certainly a major milestone, and I always breathe a sigh of relief at that point! It takes a lot of effort & resources just to see the drivers make the first revolution by themselves. [<:o)]
Neat boxes, Marx had some wonderful artwork in the early years. I don’t have many boxes in my collection, so I always enjoy seeing pictures of them.
Now to continue on with Clockwork CV’s - I hope all of you Marx fans find this somewhat interesting, I’ll try to keep this as brief as possible…
Sometime in 1938 or '39, Marx simplified the body for the clockwork Commodore Vanderbilts. Basically, they went from two domes to just one and left off the handrails. This is a bit more involved than just leaving stuff off an existing locomotive; it used a different stamping for the CV body that doesn’t have the mounting holes for the handrails or 2nd dome. The first artwork I have seen depicting the plain body is in the 1939 Ward’s catalog on p. 73. The change to the plain body happened at or about the same time as the change from 10 spoke diecast drivers to the 7 spoke stamped drivers. As a side note, Marx changed from the screw-in key to the square key before going to the plain body CV. At any rate, here are three types of pre-war windup CV’s with the plain body:
On the left is the bottom of the line mechanical CV w/ ringing bell & sparking motor, next is a plain body w/ reversing windup motor, and finally on the right is a whistling windup CV. Reversing windup CV’s were available from 1936 to 1940; I haven’t seen any evidence that they were produced after '40, although Marx made other reversing clockwork locomotives postwar. The only advertisement for a windup whistling CV I have seen is in the 1942 Sears Christmas catalog p.
On the cover of the magazine, and at the top of the page, it reads “O and S gauge for the operator and collector”. So where are the articles for us Marx collectors? I’d love to see a full article about Marx, or even just something in the Collectable Classics section. I’ve noticed that they have also been recycling pictures from old articles in the Photo Album section of the magazine, so I plan to set up some trains and send in a picture of it.
Aside from 6 inch, I have recently gotten into collecting 3/16 scale. I don’t have much, but enough to take a picture of.
I’m sure someone else will top this in an instant though. My favorite part about 3/16 scale is that they are very realistic, and still lithographed tin. Plus, there is only a handful of cars, and very few are hard to come by, so I can say I have a complete collection of it with little money spent.
I have one thing say about single reduction motors: [8o|] . I have to have a separate layout to run my Marx trains on, because they won’t run through the Lionel switches on my Lionel layout. I do have one loop without switches on the Lionel layout, but Marx trains look lost amongst massive Lionel accessories and they disappear when passed by a string of larger O gauge freight cars. Good thing 027 track fits almost anywhere, I set up a small layout on my old kitchen table.
Trevor, you need to give this string a chance. the prewar Flyer post is up to about 70 pages while this Marx topic is barely getting started. i have a feeling that before long you will pick up more information here than can ever be garnered from a single author article.
3/16" scale Marx is a great niche to collect because as you state, there aren’t very many different types and none are exceptionally rare.
one thing to watch for if you are collecting these cars is that most were offered with not only the scale B-type truck, but also what is commonly known as ‘high’ or D-type trucks. they can couple, but the cars mounted on D trucks ride noticeably about ¼" higher.
for a little more variety than just being pulled by the usual #999 and wedge tender, these high truck cars were used in the B&O & SP diesel sets for a better appearance. it is clearly evident that Marx researched their graphics and numbers.
there are a few ways you can get around the single reduction motor problem. most #999s have that motor, but not all…
Marx #999 w/ double r****eduction motor
this late version of the Marx #999 was not found in 3/16" scale sets, but it will negotiate contemporary track switches and crossovers. this locomotive can be recognized by the distinctive Marx logo on the cab rather than its usual place on the side of the smoke box.
Well, I think I’ve discovered the first problem with this thread… Trevor and Gary’s posts have convinced me that I need to find a Marx 3/16" scale tank car to go with my Dad’s set! Ya’ll are going to cost me some money, aren’t you? [(-D]
The fact that Marx only had a few different designs for motors is something I definitely take advantage of. Since the 400 and 490 are extremely common engines, and feature the double reduction motors, they can be bought cheap for parts, especially the ones with broken shells. The best use I find for them is putting those motors into wind-up engines with busted coils. That way, both are cheap because no one wants to pay a lot for an engine with a broken shell, or a wind-up engine that doesn’t wind up.
When I come across the 3/16 scale cars with D-trucks, it’s usually a set headed by Santa Fe 21’s or plastic F-7 diesels. In my opinion, cars with D-trucks aren’t really 3/16 scale even though the bodies are, because the trucks appear to be half the height of the car. I’m still trying to hunt down a 333 with the gray NYC passenger cars.
What’s wrong with using the die-cast 3991 tenders that came with the engines?
They actually came this way, as shown in the 1952 Sears catalog. The cars have B-trucks on them as well. I’d like to see this set, maybe someone here has one?
What a great thread! Thanks for starting it and thanks to all of the folks who are contributing to it. What I know about Marx trains would fit in something smaller than a 6" box car.[:$] I am looking forward to learning from this thread and from the folks who are posting. I appreciate learning about other manufacturers in this great hobby that we share. I have a feeling I will be asking questions here, and as someone else said I think this thread may cause me to dig into my train fund for something other than American Flyer trains.
Please keep up the good work and keep those photos, stories and videos coming. This thread is one that I check first each time that I log on!
i do have an issue with the diecast tender, but with that comment, i was just considering that you already had the (951) tender and the #333 loco is often up for sale as a single piece. the (3991) diecast tender is (at least from the two examples i have) a dog, however. it is an overly heavy tender sitting on just about the worst wheel-axle-journal design of all Marx creations. about ½ of the #333’s power is used merely hauling this tender around.
you’re right that i should have mentioned the #21 Santa Fe diesels as also pulling D-truck scale cars as well as the #666 loco which, since it sits slightly higher, was often coupled to wedge tenders sporting D-trucks, also.
i’m not much of a Marx plastic fan, and i know there are also various plastic cars with D-trucks, but i’ll leave that for comment by someone more knowledgeable.
I wonder why this Marx 3000 steam locomotive is paired with a NYC. The colours and overall appearance are more or less identical to the F-1a and F-2a 4-4-4 “Jubilee” locomotives which were once operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I have a Marx locomotive of an identical shape, and although I got it with the inevitiable NYC tender, I believe it was originally sold as part of a British outfit, as I have seen pictures of it paired with red and yellow UK-outline passenger carriages, which I also have. The locomotive I have, though, came to me at Christmas, 2006, and included the Rock Island gondola shown in overlandflyer’s outfit, along with a stock car and, yes, the inevitable red NYC conductor’s “van,” as we call them here in Canada, on the end of the train.
Here are some prototype pictures of the CPR "Jubilees:
there were certainly some holes in the Marx product lines. although CP and PA tenders existed, they never made vans (i like that term, especially in the plural form) for those roads. in a similar but reverse situation, in the Marx 3/16" scale, they made both a Reading and an NYC caboose, but never made a Reading tender (though a friend made a quite believable one for me).
in the case of freight trains, with the NYC caboose so prevalent, the NYC wedge tender was usually the set choice, especially since the locomotives, albeit dead ringers for the CP types, were essentially unmarked and only numbered, 3000, in a few versions.
although at best it only came as a 2-4-2, at least Marx got the # of drive wheels right on their Canadian Pacific
I noticed that nothing has come up about prewar 6 inch cars with 8-wheel trucks yet, so since they’re my favorite series, I’ll bring it up. They came in two ways, either with tab-and-slot couplers, or automatic one-way couplers.
The trucks are shown on the car in the top of the picture, and the unique couplers are demonstrated as well (they are known as “one-way” couplers for obvious reasons). They were most commonly headed by a Canadian Pacific steamer in sets, but other engines such the 897 were used as well. I have only seen cars with automatic couplers in sets, but cars with tab-and-slot couplers may have been sold in sets as well.
I have also never seen a Commodore Vanderbilt with 8-wheel cars in a boxed set, but as the saying goes, “never say never”, maybe someone will prove me wrong. I do not have a very complete collection of these cars, so I will leave the task of posting pictures of them to someone else who does (I did, however, include my 3000 in the “intro” picture on page 1)
If you would like to see more of the catalog above, it is found here:
aside from a few electric outline locomotives, almost all my motive power is steam EXCEPT for Marx tin. known as the Erie-built, FM types, in the late 1950’s Marx produced three roadnames that proved to be very versatile, not to mention extremely colorful.
photographing tinplate is never a certainty for me, so to make sure things turned out well, i only shot the Seaboard livery today, but will follow up shortly with Monon and the beautiful Kansas City Southern models.
#4000 Seaboard diesel
it would be hard to come up with a better example than this Seaboard powered A and dummy unit to show that by this point in their history, Marx was truly the master of litho graphics. at a casual glance, its hard to convince your mind that you’re actually looking at a practically smooth metal shape.
Greenberg lists five different versions of the Seaboard diesel, but i have yet to find a large electric motor version.
the small electric motor version is easy to spot as it is mounted with screws located just in front of the SEABOARD roadname.
As odd as it might sound to use multiple clockwork drives in a train, it does work very good. Like Gary said, using two clockwork motors more than doubles the tractive effort - I chalk this up to the fact that Marx windups are very sensitive to slick spots in the track, since they only pull with one axle. When they are loaded to their limit, it isn’t unusual to see them alternately slip and grip, with the train stalling when it slips (naturally). By using multiple clockwork motors, usually one axle will be pulling even when another is slipping, keeping the train moving until the slipping motor regains traction. As exhibit “A”, take a look at my 1203 Triplex pulling 29 cars:
The 1203 was kitbashed from 2 Marx 401 windups, with a third 401 windup motor in the tender. A stock 401 struggles to move 7 cars around the same track, which would only equal 21 cars for the 1203. Granted, the 1203 has a bit of extra weight, but not enough on the drivers to make up an extra 8 cars… and the 1203 would pull more, if I had a bigger loop and enough cars to do it.
Of course, I like to double-head the windup Commodore Vanderbilts, too:
Speaking of CV’s, let’s take a look at a couple of postwar clockwork Vandys. First up is a black postwar CV:
The black drivers and motor sideplates are a postwar giveaway. Until about 1947 or '48, the drivers would have been nickel plated, and the motor sideplates either bare metal or plated. Also, note that this model doesn’t have any siderods - a further cost cutting measure on the cheapest of train sets. CVs can be found with or without siderods.
while i was snapping pictures the other evening, i came across a very familiar box…
(#348) Right-O-Way Railroad Signs
a few plastic versions of Marx railroad signs followed later, but this was the only metal set.
is there anyone out there who doesn’t have at least one of these sign posts somewhere on their layout or stashed away in an old set box? yup, they’re Marx.
to complete my post started with the Seaboard diesel, the other two Marx F-M types were the Monon and Kansas City Southern.
#81 Monon - large motor (gray pilot) and small motor (black pilot) electrics
the Monon and KCS diesels both came as large or small motor electrics.
#54 Kansas City Southern - large (left) and small motor electrics
based only on the one example i have of each, unlike both the Monon or Seaboard small motor version, the KCS model had both a headlight lens in place backed by a bulb & socket attached to the motor mount.
KCS small motor w/ mounted headlight
typical large motor used in F-M models w/ headlight and reverse unit
the large motors all had double reduction gearing which allows these models to run on most trackwork.
well, i’m not sure old Cornelius would agree with your choice of a slightly competitive mid-west roadname, but to comment on customization in general, there certainly are plenty of Marx restoration or repaint candidates out there; the most amazing part being that 9 out of 10 times the bullet-proof Marx drive is still functional.
however, as James has been discussing in his CV series, there are a few models i might hesitate to touch in any condition (eg: original green or silver (or frankly anything other than black), swing peg coupler versions, etc). perhaps true for anything old, not only trains, …get a second and third opinion first, before you remove any original finish.
nice job on the model, by the way, …any coaches? cheers…gary
Very nice, David! Fortunately there are a lot of common, black, beat-up CV’s out there for restoration or customization. Here is a great example of a customized CV… a dual CV made from two CV shells welded together. Wish I had thought of it! I would love to make a clockwork version someday:
the Marx 7" line may well have been the oddest niche in the company’s history. brought out in haste to compete with 1949’s Unique Arts train sets which claimed to be the largest O gauge trains on the market, this line also included the very popular Disney train. Authorized by Walt Disney Productions and only offered in a clockwork form, this one was just for fun.
starting with Mickey on the smokebox front, this colorful set was litho’ed with many Disney characters.
engineer Donald Duck looks to be in control (or maybe just keeping an eye on the nephews?) and on the fIreman’s side, Mickey definitely appears distracted by Minnie while Goofy better hang on to the cab roof. the (994) Meteor locomotive with clockwork motor featured the ‘sparkling’ drive; the cars were all 4-wheel with tab & slot couplers.
keeping the side themes consistent, Mickey and Donald appear again on the tender along with whom i can best guess as Bashful keeping watch from the tender deck.
the #1476 boxcar featured Dumbo, José Carioca & Figaro among others…
while the gondola sported Jiminy Cricket, Pluto, Thumper & four more dwarfs; Happy, Grumpy, Dopey & Doc. unusual for Marx, the Disney set litho was their only complete train to have different graphics on each car side.
