I’ve never seen this before. This is interesting. About what scale is this? My sister and my girlfriend would both love to have these.
[quote user=“overlandflyer”]
balidas:
Love those Disney windups. …
at times feeling a little envious of N-scalers being able to carry around their entire collection in one box, years ago i started to track down some small scale tin and Marx certainly helped me out; …even with a few more Disney windups.
Donald is both engineer and fireman in this Disney character litho’ed version of the #376 channel track loco. along with the rest of the cars in this set, opposite side graphics are mirror images. only one gondola was included, but the two pictured show the only car style i have seen with a color variation.
being sold mostly over the counter at department stores and considered more of a train toy than a toy train, it’s difficult to find exact information that would date these sets, but i would have to think it was around the same time Marx released the O gauge Mickey Mouse Meteor train. José Carioca is the youngest character (1943) to appear on either set and that information itself would narrow it down to the postwar era.
and as much as this small train attracts Disneyanites, the base seems to be even more of a draw for its rich graphics.
huh… a girlfriend who like trains? i didn’t think they made those. historically i’ve found it’s best not to mention the hobby until about the 15th date.
as with most tinplate, scale is a tough call where prototype examples never existed, but if size really matters, the channel track cars have a gauge of about 1" and the litho bases are 13" x 21½". the Donald & Mickey handcar is the largest piece at 5" in length with the #3462 tender being the smallest at 2" long.
again i’ll mention the very obvious, though, that you’ll usually be competing with W.D.P. collectors. locating these sets in categories such as tin windup toys typically draws much less attention than those listed under Disneyana. luckily many Marx collectors dismiss the Disney trains as being too “toy-like”, …not sure why, but i find that kind of amusing.
Well my girlfriend grew up around trains. Her dad, his brothers and her grandfather were all model train enthusiasts. She likes most the prewar lithographed Marx.
Taking an exception from simply reading this thread, I just wanted to pop in and comment that it is terrific. Marx is very collectable, colorful and fun and affordable. I am glad to see forum members diverging from Lionel ( as much as I enjoy the brand) to cover prewar Flyer and now Marx. To me these threads constitute as much enjoyment as any one article I have read, either at TCA or elsewhere. Keep up the great work.
I just rebuilt my M1000 using a grafted motor using the adapter mounting bracket I got…good for another several decades, beyond my lifetime…rewarding is one word for this sort of enjoyable preservation… You folks have got the photography down…the images are great!
Wallyworld, I enjoyed seeing your clockwork layout in operation! You did a lot in a little space, great to see the windups in action.
Looking back through this thread, I noticed that we haven’t touched on the Mercury’s yet. Of course, I’m a clockwork enthusiast, so that’s what I’ll concentrate on. I do have to admit, I don’t have nearly the variety of Mercury locomotives as I do CV’s, but this will get the ball rolling…
First up, a run of the mill clockwork Mercury that I restored:
Nameplates, handrails and the stack are all reproduction parts from Grossman. This is just a typical Mercury with Tab and Slot couplers, windup motor w/ bell & sparker, and blackened wheels and motor sideplates that are typical of postwar Marx windups. Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate!
Another version of the Marx Mechanical Mercury:
I know that it appears to just be an unrestored version of the first Mercury, but this little jewel is a whistling version. You can’t tell the difference from this angle, but the windup motor has the whistle that can be seen either through the stack or from the bottom of the locomotive. I mentioned it in one of the CV posts, but it is worth repeating that the Mercury whistler (which - as far as I can tell - was only offered postwar) has a slightly different mechanism than the rarer CV whistler (which - as far as I can tell - was only offered in 1942). It pays to “inspect the wheels” when buying a windup Mercury to see if it is a whistler or not… I wouldn’t call them rare, but
i’m not sure if you observed this James, but when you do run clockwork locomotives, especially at ground level, it doesn’t take long before you realize why the front of so many seen for sale seem to be a lot more are scratched and damaged up front than their electric counterparts. if an electric trains jumps the track, without power it tends to stop rather quickly, whereas windup motors know no such limitation and will often continue running until they find a chair, table leg or wall.
i was photographing some Marx 3/16" scale cars today and have a little more editing to do on those, but since James brought up the Mercury, here are a couple i usually have out on display when not running them so they were handy to pose quickly.
Clockwork (whistling) and Electric (9 VDC motor) Mercury locomotives & tenders
big L may have its famous Blue Comet and if you have the $ there are typically half a dozen or more for sale every year, but though only realizing a fraction of the cost of a Comet even on the best day, the Marx blue Mercury set shows up considerably less often. fitted with the whistling clockwork motor, it pulled a unique blue livery version of the standard Marx 6" passenger cars. the tender shown is one of two that were included in sets, the other being a blue version of the standard NYC rivet tender.
more often seen as a small freight train in green livery, the Ranger RR was one of the few channel track roadnames that had a small variety of pieces beyond the initial set.
so you think that’s it for the Mercury?
as to a home layout, anything that requires permanent space doesn’t seem to work well on the upper condo floors and a recent diversion to small scale (HA!) and slightly larger live steam has claimed any leftover garage space, but the “hardwood central” gets setup and runs quite often.
I think the evidence certainly points to the Blue Mercury as being a postwar set; one theory is that it was offered in the 1950 Ward’s catalog p. 136. That ad doesn’t describe the color of the train except to say it is “…lithographed with authentic details in bright colors.” The ad is typical catalog sepia tone, although the train is certainly lighter in color than the black trains around it, the locomotive being comparable in tone to the Disney train above it, and the locomotive is definitely lighter than the remainder of the train, just like Gary’s blue Mercury. Marx must have had trouble matching the blue paint on the locomotive to the blue ink on the lithographed cars. The red Mercury locomotive seems to be well matched to the red cars, which is typical of the examples I have seen. The blue cars and locomotives that I have observed seem to be all over the place, shade-wise!
A little more Mercury catalog information: The Mercury first shows up in Ward’s 1937 catalog on p. 53 - an electric sparker with a grill decal above the headlight… presumably in gray. It has a 6" tin freight train with Tab & Slot couplers. I have a partial picture of what is reportedly a Sears 1938 catalog (must be the Wishbook, it’s not the same as the '38 fall catalog) that shows a non-sparking electric articulated. Sears has a wind-up reversing articulated Mercury in the 1939 Fall catalog, p. 895… for the low price of $1.00! Just a few of the early advertisements; one of these days I will go through and attempt to document the Merc timeline in a similar manner to the CV’s.
As a side note, I noticed that Gary’s Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with sid
i know that after a while people would stop believing my “unbelievable deal” stories so i don’t really try to pass the blue Merc set off as one and at the time (long before my addiction to live steam) was the most i had ever paid for any train set, but as i mentioned already, …not easy to locate in original C7 condition. and despite Marx sometimes lack of color QC, this set has unusually closely-matched frames.
Marx is so diverse it’s very hard to pick a favorite, but these two sets are definitely in my top 10. i need to find an HO power pack to run to red set more often. the external battery pack takes 6 D cells.
whistling clockwork (l) and 9vdc (r) non-reversing motors
here are the two Mercury motors out of the shell. James, are you sure you ID’ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
a good visual to see just what was involved with the whistle mechanism. a fast internal gear train spun a propeller-type wheel inside the housing, while a geared down external wheel, timed the baffle opening for a grade crossing sequence (over, and over, and over …again). unlik
Ooops… that’s I get for posting when I’m tired! [:$] Those certainly aren’t 14 spokers on your red Mercury; but I have seen pics of two different Mercury windups with the 14 spoke drivers that have the siderods staked on a cast-in pin. …And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
Gary, I didn’t take any offense to the post about refurbished vs original… it was worded just fine - nothing accusing about it - and it had very good information that we all need to be aware of. I know that both of us want honesty & integrity in the collectable toy train world.
Having said that, it is an unfortunate fact that at times, refurbished items are sometimes passed off as originals, either on purpose or due to a lack of knowledge. It is a great benefit of this thread that anyone who is interested in Marx can learn what to look for to discern an original from a restored or refurbished item. I hope that other “tinkerers” such as myself will might consider marking their projects in an inconspicuous place, so that future collectors will know the pedigree of those items. Just an idea to help avoid future confusion… now back to the Marx trains!
just another example of what i meant by “consistent wear”. i wouldn’t expect to find a grimy motor in what cosmetically looks to be a little used set. electrics have even a better indication in that the Marx skid pickups will definitely show wear over time and heavy use. the pickup on the d/c motored Mercury also shows little if any wear which is also consistent with the condition of the shell.
one good thing Greenberg did for collectors was to introduce a standardized means of identification for frames, trucks and couplers. the book uses drawings to show the different types, but i think pictures do a better job especially with 8 wheel trucks. let’s start with type A…
Marx 8 wheel 6" tin boxcar with A truck type
type A trucks
found on Marx 6" tin with either tab and slot or automatic, one-way couplers, there are two distinct variations, however, both look identical from a normal side view…
type A trucks - variation
the difference being in a punched out area just above the side frame detail. adding a bit more realism to the 6" tin, 4 wheel frame cars, this first 8 wheel truck was eliminated from the Marx inventory after WWII with the introduction in 1942 of the more realistic scale cars and scale truck design.
Although I wouldn’t call myself a plastic collector, I still have quite a few pieces belonging to this category. To finish up what Gary started, here are the other two types of trucks:
First, Type E, or deluxe trucks
Deluxe trucks use stamped wheels much like the Scale and G trucks
I’m not so sure where these were mainly used, but I’m not a big fan of the way they look.
Last (but probably not least) Type F trucks
These used solid die-cast wheels
Type F trucks are most commonly found in Sears Allstate sets.
Here’s a comparison of the two
Most Marx trucks are compatible, so if you bought a 3/16 scale set in 1940, and then Deluxe set 20 years later, they will still hook up.
3/16 scale cars started the fork coupler design (also c
Later on (I’m not sure of the exact date) the dummy knuckle coupler was added to the mix, …
Trevor
collectors generally agree that the plastic knuckle coupler first appeared in 1953.
plastic knuckle to tab & slot coupler compatibility
the more realistic plastic knuckle coupler became the new fixed coupler for 6" & 7" tin and 4-wheel plastic cars, however, for 6" tin car clockwork sets, sliding tab & slot couplers were still used. to make use of the rolling stock already out there, Marx did a great job with a compatible design.
collector alert… reproduction plastic knuckle couplers are available. actually a good thing because as rugged as they are, knuckles aren’t as kid-proof as the metal tabs and it’s not that unusual to spot a broken coupler knuckle or two in a well used set. they are rivet attached to the frame, but Robert Grossman Co. (well known Marx replacement parts source) also has rivets and a setting tool to do the job correctly.
Gary brought up a good point about CV’s - and Marx locomotives in general, since most of them came in electric and windup versions - when it comes to identifying motors in pictures. I think we may have touched on this before, but always look carefully at the lever - notice that the early electric manual reverse lever is almost square on the end, whereas most Marx clockwork brake levers have a round end. The exception is the reversing windups; they have a lever that is bent over 90 degrees and can be easily confused in a picture with the square ended electric reverse lever. Another tip is to always look at the area between the drivers… with a clockwork, the area is plain, but on an electric you will see either gears or a brushplate, depending on the side. If the underside is visible, the difference between a clockwork and electric is obvious… do you see gears or a sliding pickup? But, when looking at the underside of a CV or Mercury windup, always look for the tell-tale “blob” in the smokebox which would indicate a whistling motor! Many times, the whistle may not work even if the mechanism winds and runs, so the seller may not realize it is a whistler. Usually, the chamber has dirt or spiderwebs in it, so you merely have to take it apart and clean it to make it work. The last thing to look for in a bottom view of a windup CV (in particular, an early windup swing-peg CV) is the hub behind one of the front wheels for the wheel governor. A clockwork swingpeg should have a wheel governor, and even very early CV’s w/ Slot & Tab couplers could have one. Also, early Marx electrics have two small sliding electrical pickups, whereas later electrics have a one-piece slider. I’m not well versed on when the change was made, so someone else will have to fill in the details on that!
Anyway, these are a few things that can help you determine a) what you are actually seeing in the picture and b) if the locomotive has
as i mentioned with the military cars, the extended play value of anything on a flat car made them quite popular with the original owners as stand-alone toys separated from their rail car base, the collector effect being that of often finding a flat without the load. this problem is often even more compounded when a relative eventually discovers an old set but doesn’t make the connection thus selling the train and loads separately.
in their civilian line, Marx made 6" tin versions of the airplane and truck flats, but of course the Army tank flat only appeared in olive drab for the military sets. the airplane flat is the easiest to document…
(572A) Airplane flat w/ pressed steel airplanes
only available as a 4-wheel frame with fixed tab&slot couplers, the airplane flat has both the unique wheel clip rivet mounted to the deck along with a raised slot to secure the plane’s tail skid. the punched out window version of the airplane is the correct load and though usually seen in red, other colors have been reported. whether other colors were used as original loads is always a matter of speculation among collectors. frankly with the airplane flat being much less common than the truck flat, most collectors are happy to obtain any example.
with the 6" truck flats, there were not only more flat car types but MANY more vehicles.
Marx 4" pressed steel vehicles
always trying to find multiple uses for his products, when Marx started making trains, it didn’t take long before some of his 4" steel trucks made an appearance in sets. again,
by 1938, (though there is some evidence that points to late 1937), the development of the Marx 6" tin line reached a state where frame and basic car designs would continue practically unchanged through the next four decades. and though these body styles appeared in many other roadnames and liveries, the core “550” series cars were the first produced and likely the most recognizable as classic Marx tin.
already showing a few of the earlier 8-wheel red frame cars, there is some evidence that the red litho frame 4-wheel cars were the first released with the new frame design, but speculation that difficulties in accurate litho registration prompted the change to a plain black frame within the first year of production.
i’ve seen two examples of boxed red litho frame sets, and they both contained the same locomotive…
electric Commodore Vanderbilt loco (black plates) & (551) NYC Tender.
…the black nameplate CV with a black frame rivet tender. i’ve seen a few examples of the 551 tender on a red litho frame and must admit the red/ black/white contrast makes it sharp looking, but it was never produced by Marx. the 551 tender frame in this style should always be plain black, though missing practically any tender specific details, this car is quite often posed within a freight consist rather than directly behind the locomotive.
#552 Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific Gondolas
the very common Rock Island gondolas were eventually made in a number of different detail color variations, but these two liveries are the only two that should be on th
