Brakie, You figured it out, I own millions in stock of Life Like! But really, although I have bought almost 100% LLP2K wheel sets, my only bias was being able to replace all my plastic wheels with metal ones for the least amount of money. I also have some Kadee metal wheel sets and my branchline cars and Intermountain came with metal sets which I see no reason to change.
Virginian, My only reason for using metal wheels is; 1). I am convinced both my track and wheels stay cleaner. 2). I like the more scale appearence of the silver treads than the black treads of plastic.
Although you appear to be flying in the face of conventional wisdom, your choice of staying with plastic is your business and certainly sound.
If any of you decide to change over to metal wheels sets, don’t throw your plastic wheels away. I have sold these on Ebay and am always amazed at how much they sell for! One container of 100 sold for $10.00.
I purchased some used cars with different types of trucks, mostly plastic axels and wheels. When I changed one of them over to metal and set it back on the track, off it went by itself where it didn’t before.
I wonder where that hill came from?
Jacon
Well, I’m going to go against the flow here, and recommend the Reboxx wheels, with the 0.088" wheel thickness. (And incidentally, RP-25 does not mandate a .110" wheel thickness. It only specifies the contour of the flange and fillet, and the degree of taper to the tread.). I recently picked up a couple of packages of these wheels at a local train show, and tried them out. They are unbelievably good looking, and I’ve had absolutely no derailments in which the wheel tread was at fault. My track is hardly flawless, either!
I had converted to P2K wheels almost a year ago, and was beginning to see some build-up of dirt on the treads. I can’t verify that the new wheels will be better, but I can always hope. The biggest problem with the Reboxx wheels is that I’m finding grades where I never knew I had any![:D]
One tip: The “Exxact Socket Tool” (Reboxx) or the “Truck Tuner” (Micromark) is an essential factor in acheiving the absolute minimum rolling resistance. It cleans out and reshapes the bearing socket to a precise 60 degrees, while removing flash (and it’s there, guys - you may need a good light and a strong magnifier to see it, but it’s there).
Years ago MDC made some very slippery wheel sets acetal wheels and metal axles in acetal side frames. (Fox sideframes on some of the oldtimers) Probably the best rolling trucks I’ve ever seen. I’ve some older metal wheel, axle and sideframe trucks that never rolled well.
You’re trying to reduce friction. The harder and smaller the contact points between the rail, wheel and axle bearing the less friction. Too long axles are going to be generating extra thrust friction (horizontal) against the side frames until one or the other wears down to fit right. A slightly too short axle will be fine if it stays in, in fact, since it reduces the contact area it is going to roll a little better. Performance may suffer as it can move back and forth in the side frame. The sideframe tuners can’t hurt if used correctly.
The smoother the wheel the less likely it is to pick up crud. Ergo the sintered Athearn wheels not smooth picked up crud.
Could be some of the crud being deposited is plastic from wheels wearing to the railhead profile. Some of the plastic wheels will pick it up. Assuming the axles are metal aand the side frames plastic or metal, metal wheels being harder will have less rolling friction.
Does graphite help? Might help some on metal axle to metal side frame. Probably not on plastic side frames
They carry a premim price and most supplier’s pay attention to little things like wheel guaging, non magnetic axles, wheel centering, etc. because they can afford to!. Some DO it more than others.
The sideframe material actually contributes over 50% of the ‘rolling’ effectiveness, with engineering plastic’s such as Delrin leaving the other’s behind. I’ts just EASIER to give credit to magical 'Metal wheels. WHO besides EB (and Lindberg) gives you pure Delrin? I keep one car with EB trucks as a ‘standard’ to judge other’s by. I find KATO trucks and INTERMOUNTAIN cars to be a close enough second. What % is the Intermountain’s WHEELS vs the ACETAL sideframes, I cannot say, but the combination sure ROLLS.
10 years ago I converted all my cars to JB nickel plated brass wheels. They improved the rolling 50% - 100% depending on the sideframes. My reward’s were far greater in getting wheelset’s that were so much in guage that I stopped having to check them, and as the black plating wore off shiny treads emerged. Having wheels that are 100% NMRA also cut down derailment’s I’ ve past the 300 mark and when you figure adding these benefits @ $ 3 - $ 4 per car (I do them one at a time) the cost is small and the joy’s enormous.
If someone is happy with P2K, that’s fine. I like MDC cars
My experience with P2K was poor Q.C.
Out of 12 wheelset’s 10 had irregular plastic axle point’s causing car ‘wobble’.
You asked…
PS: n6nvr has got it right !. I detect some engineering .
This is because harder things have less rolling resistance. For example. Get on a hill and roll a marble down. Then roll a cotton ball down. Not a very good example, but you get the picture. Plastic wheels make a lot of the junk that builds up on your rails as well. Its sort of like mopping the floor and then jumping around with muddy shoes. (me and my examples!!![:D][:)][8D]). With metal wheels you can pull longer trains and your track stays cleaner. Plus they make that cool clickity-clack noise.
If you rub a plastic comb through your hiar on a day when the air is very dry, you will pick up a static charge. This same principle works for plastic wheels. They will pick up a charge while rolling, and hence will attract any opposite charges particle on your tracks.
Metal on metal does not have electro-static charging, so that is why your tracks seem to be cleaner with metal wheels.
If you are picking up crud with metal wheels, I would suggest that you check the wheels when new for residue machining oil…very, very minute…but will cause this problem. You might want to clean the wheels first with ISO to make sure they clean. Remember, your fingers are a very good source of oil also, so you might want to use assembly gloves, like those used in electronics assembly lines if you have a skin oil problem.
Single word responses: “STUDENTS” “UP”! Is this a coded message? Does it mean “People, rise against the machine”? Am I missing something, or did you all get decoder rings when you joined this forum?
AnthonyFP45, Are you really going to quit using LLP2K wheel sets because Mr. Gibson stated what he has?
Do your own due diligence and make a determination from that information. As I have said many times before, how do you know the person giving an opinion on this forum really knows what he is talking about? I am not saying this to disparage Mr. Gibson, or myself, for that matter! He has his opinions, I have mine and you should have yours, which are based on on determining the facts for yourself! At the same time, I think Intermountain, Kadee ReBOXX, LLP2K and NWSL all make worthy products deserving our attention and they are all very capible of producing rejects, also!
I was referring to an old popular radio quiz show ‘Kay Kaiser’s College of Musical Knowledge’. This was a call for an audience answer when a contestant was stumped on a question. Perhap’s when I spent my childhood listening to Kay, you were listening to 'Little Orphan Annie or ‘Captain Minight’ (decoder ring’s).
Re: P2K wheels.
FACT Out of a new pkg. (of 12) 36" wheels 10 had wobble. Closer inspection revealed showed non-concentricity of the axle point’s. They looked like dipped Hershy ‘Kisses’ under a magnifying glass - tails an all. These passed LL’s inspection
OPINION I feel that a 20% yield is not in my best interest… You do not have to concur.
Don, When did you purchase these P2K wheels? I bought 40 packets of them a little over a year ago. I check gauge on every ‘re-wheel’ I do, and also roll them over a glass surface plate to look for wobble. I also do the ReBoxx ‘tool’ thing to all of my sideframes.
I have never had a bad wheel or axle for the P2K wheels(33"/solid back). I have over 100 cars with P2K wheels and have had no problems on the layout. I also have 40-50 cars with Intermountain or ReBoxx wheel sets. I like the solid metal axles on the Intermountain, but at $3.99/pack for P2K(M B Klein), the P2K’s work fine. The engineering plastic used on the axles is much harder that what Kadee uses, and does not grind itself to oblivion like the Kadee axles do in metal sideframes.
What I’m saying is that I’m going to experiment with different wheel brands, instead of just staying with P2K. I bought a set of Jay Bee wheels. One of the wheels is warped! So even high quality items can have glitches as well.
I have had a lot of problems with Jay Bee wheels wobbling. They are what TSP includes with their kits. I have a pretty good collection of Jay Bees that I replaced with Kadees.