In the context of this thread, we are talking of passenger trains. There has not been a passenger train thru the Detroit Tunnels in 40 years. As I said the direct Buffalo line has been ripped-up. Yes Via goes from Windsor to Toronto, but Amtrak has not sent a train from the mid-west to Toronto (via Port Huron) in about 20 years. If you wanted to go from Detroit to Buffalo, it would be just as quick to go south to Toledo and then along the Lakeshore route, so as to avoid the 2 lengthy border crossing stops.
Unlike Grand Central Terminal, which is located in the midtown NY business district, the Detroit MC station serves no practical rail passenger purpose.
Why would AMTRAK which is a function of the United States Government find it part of its federal jurisdiction to travel or service through Canada which is a foreign country?
This is an interesting question because AMTRAK routes are often supported by state legislatures to keep them functioning such as the former Santa Fe Ration Pass route of AMTRAK Southwestern Chief.
I have personally traveled from Windsor to Niagara Falls by VIA rail upon which occasion I then picked up an AMTRAK train route from Toronto to New York. I had to do a customs crossing on AMTRAK.
Before AMTRAK the Canadian National ran a passenger train from Toronto to Chicago on the Grand Trunk Western called the INTERNATIONAL LIMITED. This train ran AMTRAK in the states and VIA rail in Canada. The AMTRAK train MAPLE LEAF runs in Canada from New York to Toronto. So why do they do things differently with the, MAPLE LEAF and the INTERNATIONAL LIMITED? - Go Figure!
As I said VIA runs Windsor/ Detroit to Niagara Falls, just no Detroit river crossing!
There has always been a sense of loss concerning the New York to Detroit to Chicago routing since New York Central abandoned its passenger transportation on subsidiary Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo. The Detroit/ Windsor crossing was just taken for granted as the cities are sister cities. New York Central business was the driving force in the crossing of the NYC CANADIAN NIAGARA from Chicago to Niagara Falls at Detroit and also the NYC CANADIAN from Chicago to Toronto at Detroit. With New York Central gone and without railroad interest in a Detroit river crossing the issue died and AMTRAK came along very late with a very unclear territory of operation. Canadian public interest remained strong for CN to connect to Chicago and to New York. I believe this is because Canada has much more interest in the United States than the United States has had in going to Canada.
Bob, thanks for the update on Woodward. I first visited Detroit early in 1942 at the age of 10, arriving with parents at the Michigan Central Station after an all-day reclining seat coach trip on the then new Empire State Express. For years afterward, I explored the Detroit streetcar system, when not only the trunk lines like Woodward and Michigan-Gratiot and Fort-Kerchival were running, but even such lines as Fourteenth and Trumble. I thought that when they bought the terrific post-war PCC’s that they were committed to keeping streetcars, but was wrong.
Tracks in the street. My last streetcar ride in the USA was in a Philadelphia PCC, before that as an operator at Branford. When I moved to Jerusalem, I never expected to see tracks in the street again. Then in 2000, along with the first low-floor buses, we got signs promising light rail. But it dragged on and it was not until about eight years later that we actually saw rail installed. The first wire when up around 2010, and I said a Shehehiyanu prayers (Thank the Eternal for bring us to this time!). Then came the first middle-of-the-night test operation, then with me at a sidewalk caffe downtown, the first test run downtown passed by, then came shadow operation. The day before the first free public operation cars, were run for VIPs only. and I couldn’t pass as a VIP. But at the very station near my apartment, the train arrival signs were working, announcing arrivals as if there were regular service, and there were no signs saying this was only a test. Soon enough, a two-car Alstom C-302 train came (after initial test I’ve seen only two-car operation, not once a single car), the doors opened and I entered. A security guard came and told me to get off. I told him I felt I had every right to ride, that there were no signs saying I couild not ride, that I had waited for the train, and that I would not get off untless they at least took me to the next stop.
How much of a shortcut to Buffalo in as far as miles are concerned? Track is still in place to Niagra Falls, Ontario from Toronto and seems to be in reasonable enough shape for GO Transit to send a train there. At some point I imagine that the CN or CP tracks from Windsor to Toronto junction with those tracks. There is service across the border at Niagra Falls with a working railroad bridge connecting Niagra Falls, Ont to Niagra Falls, NY. Niagra Falls, NY has a rail connection into the rest of the upstate NY rail system. So even though the Canada Southern might be torn up…seems to me the rails are still in place for a rail trip from Detroit to Buffalo.
This is true but then again it had a direct streetcar connection to downtown Detroit. And the structure of the building is still sound and the building can still be renovated and thats one reason why the Mouron family has hung onto it. Although there are hundreds of other building candidates in Downtown Detroit and nearby that can be renovated a lot cheaper and produce a higher return for the dollar spent with renovation. Detroit commerical real estate has to recover very substantially before this building would ever be considered for renovation by a private source, IMO. It is not outside the reach of a local public or state source to buy the building and renovate it.
Ok I guess I need to chime in here with a little geography. Detroit is the one place that is NORTH of Canada. Seems odd but owing to the curve in the Detroit River which flows EAST to WEST at its head water then turns SOUTH at Detroit to go to Lake Erie. Check a Google map for the layout.
The Windsor, Canada VIA train station therefore is SOUTH of Detroit and the tracks run along the west flowing Detroit River to travel to Niagara Falls, or Toronto, Canada. Thats right the “Florida of Canada” is located along the Detroit River south of the United States.
The Michigan Central Station is located south of the bend in the Detroit River so that the 1904 Detroit River Tunnel crossing is EAST to WEST and the Canadian train station along the Detroit River runs parallel to the north part of the river in an easterly direction along the southern coast of Lake St. Clair to go EAST to Niagara Falls.
Yes a VIA passenger train already runs from Windsor, Canada to Niagara Falls. The connection that is missing is an American railroad company interested in going from Chicago across the Detroit River - it’s AMTRAK that dropped the ball because New York Central/ Penn Central disolved as a company before AMTRAK could figure out how trains ran through Detroit.
Canada hardly has enough interest in Windsor, Canada to want to go from there to Chicago. Detroit is the major city US city that is lost to the rest of the nation.
Since we are discussing odd facts about Detroit - it was built by the French and was a battlefield in two wars. The Revolutionary War and The War of 1812. It is the only city its size that straddles a US border with a sister city in a foreign country.
Michigan Central Station was uniquely located and built to be an international point of crossing and expedite rail travel from New York to Chicago quicker than any other route. It also served the City of Detroit well and is unlike any other place
Looking at my 1966 Official Guide: Buffalo-Windsor by CaSo =249 miles; Buffalo-Windsor by TH&B and CN connecting in the Hamilton area =265. So the difference is only 16 miles. On the other hand Buffalo-Detroit via CaSo =252 vs, Buffalo-Toledo-Detroit =349. At almost 100 miles longer going around Toledo, I now don’t know if that would be as quick as going th
Dr D, I took the Amtrak/VIA Chicago-Toronto train a couple of times about 1990. I think it was a joint operation because there was significant milage in both countries. They used a train from each system on alternate days. I remember at least one of the trips was on VIA equipment. Since the route was less than 750 miles, any subsidies would have to be picked up by the states on the US side, if the train was to be recreated.
If Detroit was serious about rail service, including commuter, they could do something like what Philadelphia did. Phily had the PRR and Reading stub terminals. They connected the 2 stubs by a tunnel, replacing Reading terminal with a modern 4 track thru station, and inbound commuter trains pass under the center city, to become outbound trains. In Detroit they could start tunneling just pass the MC station, tunnel to an undergroung city center station, and then continue to a connection with the old GT Dequindre cut (photos seem to show that there is still room for tracks besides the bike trail) and continue out past Milwaukee Jct. to Pontiac. Of course, such a mega-project is unlikely in Detroit.
Or, as a stopgap,since tunneling is expensive, they could use diesel light-rail vehicles, like those on NJT’s River Line and Ottawa’s O-line, and possibly Trinity Express at Fort Worth and Dallas, and run on city streets. Michigan Avenue is wide enough. This would be a do-able low-budget project.
Detroit is going to have money to spend once it exits it’s reorganization at some point. They are making some pretty good business decisions via the Mayor’s office and Trustee, from my observation. Don’t count them out for the future and once Detroit emerges from bankruptcy, it might actually have some money to spend. Though I would agree that big of a tunneling project is probably not going to be on anyones mind.
Detroit does have a solid core of Industrial Base and Corporate HQ in and around the city, if the reorg is done right it can return to a vibrant city again.
Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me and thats part of Michigan’s problem internally with Detroit. They should have forced the city into bankruptcy decades ago instead of allowing it to limp along with various aid packages.