Just found this on the internet, it has been remastered and dubbed with sound. I have not seen this footage before and learned a few things about the Milwaukees operation. Never knew they used mid-train slaves as much as shown in this film and it looks like at least some of their track was in fairly good shape in 1973 given the speeds some of these trains were traveling. Nice video though…
Where a single ‘Little Joe’ is coupled to a diesel engine consist - Is the Little Joe a manned double heading helper or does the Little Joe have MU capability to also control the diesel engine consist and therefore is the only head end crew?
There is a picture of the full front view of a Little Joe (@ the Clark’s Fork Bridge) it shows MU hoses on either side of the coupler… Might be MU hoses or (possibly, heat or air lines) for hooking to passenger trains(?).
As for the mid train power. I am just not sure of the technology they used to communicate with those units (DPU’s?) and their head-end control.
I think, based on Southrn Rwy use of mid-train ‘slaves’, back in that time frame… The control technology required a Boxcar to house the mid-train slave communication technology. Passing through a tunnel would have been, possibly, a loss of communication and control between units, and potentially, problematic (?).
No idea if the Milwaukee used unmanned mid-train units, or what the technology they used to communicate control between the manned and unmanned units. All the Diesels seemed to have a pair radio antennaon the cab roofs. On the cabooses seemed to ba an ‘early’ style antenna with a circular appendage about half way up its length ( tree 68 will know a lot more about these pieces of communications equipment.)
My guess is that the mid-train units were manned(?) or possibly,just DIT- Dead in Tow(?)
We were down that way just before the end, and stopped in @ a Substation to ask if any trains in the area.
The powerhouse guy said there was a Westbound coming, but, the Joe would have his Pantograph down as there had been Wire Trouble and that Engineer had been directed to run with the Diesels only.
The train arrived, and passed, and went, Pantograph down.
Some roads ran with the REAR Pantograph in the event it was damaged, the Front one could be used. If the Front Pantograph was damaged, it might foul the rear one, even if in the lowered position.
MILW was a fascinating road.
Just looking at all the infrastructure as in poles and wire, it is easy to see why electrification is so costly
Thank You.
I think you’re talking about the “wagon wheel” antenna - and I don’t know a lot about them. There seemed to be several variations. They were popular for a while, but likely were more fragile than the “firecracker” and current low-profile designs.
Early attempts at remotely controlling locomotives did require a lot of space - hence the boxcar. As electronics got smaller, it became possible to put them in the short hood.
It’s already been noted here that many of the locomotives had two “firecracker” antennas on the cab roof. Very likely one was for the control of what we now call “distributed power.”
I haven’t made a study of such systems, so I’m not sure what method of communication the early units used. Digital does seem likely, although an analog system of communication is possible (ie, like a modem, vs just sending ones and zeros). If you listen in to EOTs, you’ll hear pure digital.
The Little Joes were equipped with a mini diesel controller that could be operated separately or with a mechanical linkage to the electric controller. It was developed in-house by a retired MILW electrical engineer. I’ve never seen a picture of the setup, only read descriptions of it. The Joes had to lead, diesels weren’t equipped to lead a electric.
The MILW used Locotrol, but I thought it was only on certain SD40-2 engines. I know when they were renumbered into the 100-200 series, the locotrol engines were numbered in the 10-20 series for quick identification. They started receiving locotrol equipped engines about 1973. Possible the engines shown in the films were original test beds/demonstrators for locotrol equipment.
Somewhere (it’s still packed away after moving over a year ago) I have a MILW air brake and train handling book from about 1976/77. It no longer has anything about the electric locomotives, but does have a section on operating the locotrol equipment.
Jeff
I think Jeff is correct…
According to the Milwaukee Road Historical Association and their publications, the Little Joes MU with diesels it was one of the achievements of the Milwaukee Road Engineering Department that developed that. Now me being ignorant of almost all railroad technology I have no idea why that was an achievement. Are Electric locomotives incompatible in some way?
They also pionered “regenerative braking” or returning kinetic braking energy back to the wires as electricity.
CMStPnP- Terrific clips, especially coming from a Super 8. Really enjoyed these scenes. The locomotives in each scene are all really clean and reflect an employee pride I’m sure. As mentioned the speed at which those big freights are going is quite surprising considering all that is written about the track conditions at that time.
Hard to believe what was to come.
Why were they called Little Joe’s? Compared to the diesels, they don’t look at all little to me.
Paul of Covington- They were named little Joe’s because they were actually originally built for the Soviet Union in 1945, whose leader and one time WWII ally, was “Little Joe Stalin”. The Cold War broke out just as the order was completed by GE and they could no longer be sold to Russia. Ordinally the were built to Russia’s 5 ft gauge.
An American Rail Fan I met down there said these were called ‘Pelicans’, is this true??
Yard Goat.
http://www.american-rails.com/images/ECMILWDeerLodgeBP.jpg
A snowy day on the CSS&SB.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/0/2/5602.1226409827.jpg
Thank You.
Thanks, Miningman.
I don’t know if this question was directed specifically to me (this being the Pelican State), but I’ve never heard of any locomotive being called “Pelican”, and I don’t know of any electrics ever being used around here. Of course, I’m not that knowledgeable about local RR history, and also, they may have been called that somewhere else.
Have never, ever heard to them referred to as anything but Little Joes - on the MILW and the CSSB.
I believe that the original boxcabs on MILW were nicknamed “Pelicans”, don’t know why. As long the Joes on MILW and South Shore have mentioned, also remember that five Little Joes went to Brazil on the Paulista. I believe that they lasted in service there until the 1990’s.
Thank You Mr. CSSHEGEWISCH!!! Re Pelican Locomotives.
Another obscure fact cleared up, a question I have had in the back of my mind for 40-odd years.
Thank You to all the other Experts on these Forums, and
Thank You for the Internet for giving us a quick and easy medium to transmit data.
A Good Day has begun!!!
BTW.
Look what else might still exist in South America!?
http://alcoworld.railfan.net/cp600.htm
http://alcoworld.railfan.net/cp600-6.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/9/9/8/2998.1400198349.jpg
D&H 20??
When they were originally put up for sale, after the US embargoed certain things to Soviet Russia, GE quoted a price to the MILW for all 20. By the time the MILW decided to buy them, some were already sold as mentioned. The MILW bought the remaining ones, I think at the same price originally qouted for all of them.
“Pelicans” were the original box cabs as noted. I have a couple books on the MILW’s electrification and I don’t think anyone knows for sure where the nickname came from.
I must admit, I didn’t have much interest in MILW electrics until I read Richard Steinheimer’s book, “The Electric Way across the Mountains.”
Jeff
They were apparently also called “black cows” and “mules,” according to one site.
A poster on trainorders.com offered this: " A string of 3 or 4 box motors, notched out too fast from a dead stop, could knock a substation off line. They could “bite off more than they could chew” – hence the name “Pelican”.
Hey found some more, these are actually interviews with former employees.
Even better info on the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension if you have time to watch some of these interviews of former Milwaukee Road employees. They have good detail in some of them about Milwaukee Operations. Mostly the operations are in state of Washington. Some of these guys have relatives that worked on the original construction of the Pacific Extension…also interesting.
Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAwT97yFT84
Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMEBNlh8co0
Part 3 (Dale Porter - Conductor, biggest check $4500 for two weeks work, that was a lot of money back then):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc3xAEKi9B0
Part 4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80K8s_P_TGA
Part 5:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN1r-Sl50Z8
Part 6 (Another guy whose grandfather came out in 1908 to construct the rr):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDojTj_H8Bk
Part 7:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP74818d8ao
Part 8 (last one):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvMCB66jJqQ
There are more interviews on youtube for the 2012 Luncheon, all of them are interesting to listen to.
MILW in an earlier day