As the owner of a fair amount of post-war equipment (and nothing made after 1985), I’ve begun to explore what’s now possible in the way of Lionel train control systems for those items. Having spent a good part of today trying to get my head around the information in various documents, owners’ manuals, forum postings, videos, and the like I think I’m more confused than when I woke up. I thought I’d find a simple, straight-forward resource that would explain what can be done and how to do it. This seems to be eluding me. I find references, for example, that Legacy can “control everything Lionel’s ever made” – and then seemingly ignoring the true “legacy” products made prior to the 1990s.
Can anyone recommend something that explains what the possibilities are for an exclusively post-war equipment set? What am I missing?
I have never owned Legacy but from what I understand the principal is still the same ( I had original TMCC) theres 2 ways of going about it both basically same just different equipment. 1st what I recommend is a TPC-300 or TPC-400 ( the number = the watts it can handle) you need one for each loop of track you have the other is a power master both do the same thing they control the votage to the track with the use of your hand control Now I’m guessing you already have TMCC or Legacy if not thats need or at least the hand control and the powermaster as you can I’ve been told do this with just a power master and a cab1 but again you need a power master per loop of track and this cannot be done with a TPC and cab1 by itself ( cab1 = controller) Hope more with more knoweledge jump in but thats the basics
I am currently 100% post-war conventional - so I don’t have TMCC or Legacy. All I’ve got for “train control” is a Type V transformer and a #167 whistle control…[:D] For example, how does a classic transformer fit into these systems - or does it at all?
From what I have seen in Lionel’s Ads and attempts to sell product, any transformer producing ACcurrent can power the system. The rest Is wired between the transformer and the tracks. I personally stuck conventional as it filled all my needs, but if this is bc of 2yo, I’d suggest the LionChief trains instead. It’ll limit you a bit, but ought to work. Who knows, mebbe there’s an RC fan out there who could help you put together your own version?
If you want to control trains from the CAB-1 remote, Use one PM-1 PowerMaster per power district between the V and the track(kind of like the 167). For example, Use A-U & B-U knobs on the V(set to full voltage) powering 2 PM-1s. The CAB-1 talks to each PM-1 as “Track 1” & “Track 2”, and you control the train with the remote - it does what the 167 did(direction & whistle) and adds in speed control, bell(for bell equipped trains), momentum(low, med, or hi), and stall voltage(not important to get started). All switches, uncouplers, and accessories work the same as before - this is just for train control.
That’s all it takes to get started with handheld/remote control - the bare minimum is the CAB-1, a PM-1, and the cable to connect the PM-1 to the V(it is a Molex cable with an inline fuse, the track is connected to the binding posts on the PM-1 just like on the V).
What Rob said above is correct. The CAB-1 plus as many powermasters as you have power districts and that will give you remote control of the track voltage, bell and whistle.
Again, this isn’t true command control in that you’re not talking directly to the loco. You’re simply remotely controlling the voltage and bell/whistle actuation for each power district.
Thus, you won’t be able to run multiple locos independently on a single power block but it’s still nice to have walk-around capability with very little install hassle and not having to alter any of your conventional locos.
The only tidbit I have to add is that the TPC 400 (and probably the TPC 300) do not play well with a CW 80 power supply. It appears that the TPC’s want a pure sine wave form on the incoming AC power. The CW 80’s do not provide that.
This caused me a bit of frustration when I was setting up my Legacy system, so I am passing it on to hopefully help others.
Since you have a type V, that won’t be a problem.
I noticed that Lionel is no longer listing the TPC 300 or TPC 400 in their catalog, this may also be a moot point. I do not have any experience with the Powermasters, so I can’t comment on their compatability with the CW 80.
There is no accurate diagram of conventional TMCC Trainmaster control. The text is accurate, but it points to diagram 4 which is all about Command control, not conventional.
Thank you so much! I think I’m getting it now (at least in the TMCC world – I’ll come back to LEGACY later). If I’ve got this correct, for a conventional set of equipment the PM-1 (in concert with the CAB-1 controller) acts as a sort of remote control rheostat to mediate the voltage between a traditional transformer (cranked up to 14 - 18V, depending upon who you listen to) and the track. The “Figure #2” in the book that Buckeye linked to is the exact diagram (which you well-described in words) that I was looking for - it says it’s a Lionel diagram, but try and find it on their web site! Assuming this is all right, a couple of follow-ups/confirmations:
After running a conventional engine on a track segment, would the PM-1 need to be completely removed from the power flow in order to then run a TMCC engine or can you toggle it from a “conventional power mode” to “TMCC power mode” (the latter, as I’m conceptualizing it, is simply a pass-thru of the full 14-18V to the track)? The book that Buckeye linked to that this was selectable on the PM-1 with a “Mode Switch” – which would be good.
In such a configuration, does the PM-1 deliver AC or DC to the track? For that matter, in a TMCC power mode layout is AC or DC being fed to the track? From my reading it seems that it is AC in both cases– as apparently even the newer Lionel “DC motor” engines are simply rectifying AC current from the track for their own purposes internally.
It would seem that you could not run a conventional engine and a TMCC engine (or other TMCC rolling stock) simultaneously in the same track segment - as the TMCC engine wouldn’t be getting the 18V it would be expecting as input (and wouldn’t be able to respond to things like, say, a horn request if the voltage had been taken to 0 by the PM-1 in order to stop the conventional engine). Is this correct?
Ugh - TMCC doesn’t broadcast its control signal at all when the PM-1 is in conventional mode? As Dino would say, “Ain’t that a kick in the head.” That sure limits what one could do with a little simple retrofitting of key pieces of one’s layout. At least they preserved an ability to generate the DC necessary to activate an old school whistle relay. It would also explain why Lionel doesn’t spend a lot of energy or product development trying to convince customers with conventional layouts to upgrade their existing equipment.
I think the net-net of all of this is that for me TMCC and LEGACY just aren’t an attractive proposition for an exclusively post-war layout. A portable throttle and whistle controller would be nice to have - but I’d rather put that money into buying more conventional equipment and track.
Because isn’t Lionel completely stopping production of O tubular forever? I better stock up immediately (let the flames begin…)[;)]
Everything Lionel has made can be controlled by legacy or tmcc. The systems require use of a powermaster per seperate section/loop. The best explanation of these systems are a few dvd’s that have been produced. The latest one is from TM Books and video called “Modern O gauge remote control” which just premiered at the TCA York,PA train show. it uses a split screen showing how to wire and use the systems. There were 2 from OGR video’s that were based on tmcc(slang=cab1) only. The new one has both tmcc and legacy(slang=cab2) in it. If you are going to start using either system, I would consider getting the video. It’s definitely worth the $20 bucks.
Well, no, that’s not true. It has nothing at to do with the position of the PM-1 switch, but rather the absence of one very important component - the 12911 TMCC Command Base which is connected to the layout with just one wire to the common ground(anywhere).
I have all conventional equipment like you, however, I do have a Command Base on each layout(only one per layout required). This is the next step in “TMCC land”. The Command Base is the source of the command signal(s) to each & every command equipped piece of equipment. In my case, I use command signals to control SC-1 & SC-2 switch and accessory controllers for remote(from the handheld CAB-1) control of switches and accessories.
The CAB-1 communicates to the Command Base with a digitally modulated (typically - there are optional frequencies)27.125mhz radio signal, the Command Base issues the command signal(s) to the command equipment via a combination of the track rails and the household AC wiring.
Here is the Complete Guide To Command Control from the Lionel website - it is sometimes hard to find when you are looking for it specifically, and it provides a better overview than trying to piece together the info from each component manual.
Could you please post that link again (or another way) - it doesn’t seem to point to anything. I tried searching and rooting around the various Lionel web sites and couldn’t find it - they seem to keep this stuff well-hidden![:)]
Ah, with your clarification and the document you linked to I now see the purpose of the Command Base and what is possible with TMCC and LEGACY with conventional equipment. I think I extrapolated too much from your comment that “there is no command signal, just track voltage” - my bad. I was curious as to why the PS-1 wouldn’t still be able to broadcast a control signal in conventional mode and chalked it up to something an EE would better understand - but I was erroneously ascribing to the PS-1 some of the functionality that’s actually in the Command Base.
So, it appears I can indeed retrofit existing conventional equipment with a combination of the various Lionel controller units - and if I wanted to do something more unusual, some of the products from ERR Co. Now this all looks cool – a bit pricy ($900 MSRP for a ZW-L?!?), but cool.
Is it just me, or does Lionel do a p**s poor job of explaining all of these technologies? To me their web sites are a hot mess – kinda pretty with lots of (too large) graphics, but difficult to find information unless you REALLY know what you’re look for. I can’t help but think that having a section that explains all of this for long-time, conventional Lionel customers would increase sales.
