When you’re right, you’re right, Bob; to each his own.
Thanks for your contribution.
-Crandell
Aha, there’s a sage among us. That could be it, exactly, Mark. A thread that invites opinion also seems to invite the pugnacious personality. When we gill burgers, expect hornets.
A general question - why do people participate in a “philosophy” thread that invites opinions, if they are uncomfortable reading opinions that don’t agree with the consensus?
A specific question, directed to Brunton, et al - why do you automatically assume that a poster whose writing/posting style differs from yours is being “rude and bombastic”?
My posting style is a product of my background, education and culture, no different to yours. Right or wrong, as an Australian I can’t easily emulate the “attaboys” and what I perceive as the faux bonhomie that US posters typically display a facility with. I believe in saying what I think, and getting to my point without waffling. I’m a little sad that you regard that as being antagonistic, because for the most part that’s the last thing I intend to be.
I enjoy an honest exchange of views about modelling philosophy as much as the next bloke, so I’ll be buggered if I’m going to adopt a particular view or opinion just to avoid giving offense to others who hold that opinion.
Mark.
Why is it when a deep thought discussion comes up some as to under mind it? Are they afraid others may give views they are not comfortable with and feel they must react with harsh words or click the report this post icon? What thrill do they get for doing this?
I bet if a simple topic came up on modeling a short line they will be those that would respond negatively with cries of its my layout,its my blah,blah,blah and yada,yada…Are they afraid they might learn something or that others may actually get some good thought provoking ideas?
Dang if I know.
Good thread Selector…
I have a few thoughts, and just a few that I feel need to be added…even if they are just foot notes.
TONE
Tone has been brought up a few times in this thread. Remember that tone is an AUDITORY term and cannot, ever be used in describing how someone has posted on these forums. There are afew things that get lost in the ‘internet translation’ and one of them is tone. If you read a post with the predisposition that he or she is being ‘harsh’ then it WILL sound that way…and the opposite is true. This is the reason that Emoteacons were created, to help this issue.
CONFLICT
All conflict can be attested to one thing: status. Conflict arrises if someone is trying to raise their status, or someone is trying to lower someone else’s status. I challange anyone to come up with an example that nullifies this statement. The most intense conflicts come with 2 or more people with ‘high’ status have different opinions. As a personal example, I had in my signature “Guru of DCC sound”(mearly to say that I was well informed on the new development in the hobby and would be happy to teach others about it…Guru means teacher). There were lots of people who tried (and succeded) to knock down this percieved mark of high status and hence created conflict to achieve this. I inturn removed the label (hence lowering my status) to allow others to raise their status.
Just some food for thought.
David
Larry, you’ve been around this forum as long as I have and ought to know better. A majority of these ‘thought provoking’ topics tend to turn sour after a couple of pages and end badly. I’ve seen it happen over and over again. Yes - they don’t have to, but they just do. The reasons why could fill a book, but the results are usually predictable: They only end up turning into yet another topic that draws moderator intervention.
(And no, I’m not the one who clicks the ‘report this topic’ icon on these topics.)
Well put David B .
I was struggling on contributing to this thread and your description of tone, or rather the loss of it, in this written format perfectly states what I was struggling to say.
I consider myself somewhat of an old-hand on this forum, yet have found myself contributing less-and-less and drifting away. I’m not particularly sure why, perhaps it is a phase I am in? Certainly my interests have shifted more towards scratch-building and structures, but I also think that the atmosphere has changed here as well.
I want to comment on the issue of cultural differences that have been mentioned before. Our friend Mark K illustrates well some differences in approach from one nation to another. Mark, I enjoy your approach and find myself smiling often at your posts. I have a dear friend from Australia who has a wonderfully pointed acerbic wit. He lives in the US and seems to be on a single handed mission to counter the political correctness that is so prevalent here. Your direct approach reminds me a lot of him. I tend to read your posts with his Aussie drawl in my mind. If you are not expecting it, it can be easy to feel challenged and threatened by this approach, especially in the written form.
Anyway, Selector, my Canadian friend, thought provoking as usual, lets hope that this one does not degenerate.
Simon, thanks, for both comments.
I agree with Dave to an extent. As part of my learning, cultural differences mean a great deal. Mark Newton has attempted to explain his style, but it grates on folks this side of Hawaii. [(-D] I had to turn off my own “harrumph!” filter when reading his replies because I know he is entirely willing to communicate with us…but as an equal, not as a sycophant who wants desperately to fit in…am I right, Mark? So, if he is to be an equal, he has a duty to be as forthright as we all claim to be. No more, no less. So folks, get past his apparent style, and deal with his message…not the tone if David’s message has any value.
Just for the record, though, as a former staff officer in the Canadian Forces, the written discourse most definitely has tone. That is why writing is an acquired and studied skill, since you have to learn how to tell a senior officer how to pee up a rope…nicely. It is one of the reasons that some of us get irritated with others here. Writing has style, and inset in the style is tone. Words strung together can stroke or they can sting. Just ask David. [:D] (We’re “okay”, the two of us.)
Thanks for championing the acerbic MK, Simon. It is a proper thing to do when you know it will serve a good purpose.
As for this thread degenerating, it doesn’t need to, sure, but it may very well, sure. If every one of us wills not to take a directed comment personally, and works very hard to counter with facts or solid arguments instead of invective and personal attacks (fal
and he went to Lee “H.O.” Fooks…and his model railroad was perfect!
sorry. one of my favorite songs.
" RAILROAD MODELLING
Defined: a hobby in which the person endeavours to replicate a scale example of a currently operational or an historical railroad"
Selector, I don’t think railroad modelling requires trying to replicate a currently operational or a historical railroad. Freelance railroad modelling, cleverly conceived, thoughtfully planned with context, and hewing to basic operational precepts of the prototype…it’s lost in your definition.
It is a shame when high-level posts with interesting subjects like this turn into flamethrowing or ruminations about tone of the forum. It’s a turn-off.
“But in this day and age of polarization - no sense agreeing on anything when we can fight to the death over some misunderstood principle - there are those who take umbrage when someone champions a view other than their own.” - Tony Koester
David, in the context of this thread, I think you are on to something. Conflict is based on a need for security. Needs and interests are what generate conflict when the attainment of either is retarded or prevented entirely by someone or by circumstances. In this and other forums, the desire for acceptance is a search for security. When someone challenges us and rebuffs us, worse when they attempt to belittle us, it hurts and causes us to lash out in reply. Later, when our acceptance is assured, we attempt to improve our position by changing our focus to one of establishing status.
In my case, I look back to Bob Boudreau’s reply. He apparently feels that I spend too much time here pondering the hobby. You’ll notice that my reply was neutral and accepting of his premise…not necessarily because I agree with him, but because I willed myself to consider his message and to overlook what could ea
Bruce,I must agree those types of topic goes south…To bad that…There is a lot of thought provoking modeling ideas that would be nice to discuss.
Also,I never intended for you to think I am picking on you…I had to tie in some where…
To aviod confusion, can I please ask that everyone refer to me as David B? In turn, I will sign my posts like-a-so…
David B
Thanks selector (and others, too) for your thoughts.
I have little to add because I’m headed to my layout room for "a partially dissociative experience or emotion induced when excited, pleased, aroused, or when doing anything that is interesting and desirable. "
I’ll let others handle the “arcane taxonomies” stuff.
Happy Model Railroading!
And I’m cool with Dave V.![:D]
Wow, this has gotten very, very deep… even for me! Huzzah, Crandell! You are a philospher’s philospher.
Shawnee, upon reflection, I will condede the point to you, but…I wanted to differentiate between the prototype, of which there are unique and real entities, and freelanced which may resemble aspects of one or all, but which are none-the-less imaginary or fanciful. It may even be the difference between a John Allen and John Armstrong. Each has an implied purpose and plausibility, but the one is surely more prototypical in its bent than the other. So, for me to operationalize the discussion, railroad modelling is just that…a railroad that is modelled after a real railroad. The freelanced one may have many characteristics of the/a prototype, but it is not a model of the prototype…therefore not modelling at all.
By introducing my definitions, I realize that I am wanting to impose a restriction on the thinking of all who wish to contribute, but we need to establish a frame of reference somewhere. I strongly urge, and heartily invite, others who feel that they have a better
[quote user=“selector”]
Shawnee, upon reflection, I will condede the point to you, but…I wanted to differentiate between the prototype, of which there are unique and real entities, and freelanced which may resemble aspects of one or all, but which are none-the-less imaginary or fanciful. It may even be the difference between a John Allen and John Armstrong. Each has an implied purpose and plausibility, but the one is surely more prototypical in its bent than the other. So, for me to operationalize the discussion, railroad modelling is just that…a railroad that is modelled after a real railroad. The freelanced one may have many characteristics of the/a prototype, but it is not a model of the prototype…therefore not modelling at all.
By introducing my definitions, I realize that I am wanting to impose a restriction on the thinking of all who wish to contribute, but we need to establish a frame of reference somewhere. I strongly urge
Thank-you, Alan, for modeling the diversity that this forum needs, and for also modeling the right way to disagree with someone! [bow] [:D] [8D] You have demonstrated all that I am trying to get across in this thread, that there will necessarily be diversity in all that we talk about and do…and that we can voice our diversity and our divergent views without belittling, without i
True story:
An American explorer discovered an African village where all the huts were identical in every way, precise to the fraction of an inch. The explorer eventually learned it was taboo in that tribe to appear you were trying to better your neighbor or you were asking for a fight. It didn’t matter how large your family was, your hut needed to look just like all the rest or your were asking for it. You didn’t even hang your laundry outside because then if you had more clothes than your neighbor on the line, you were picking a fight.
To us Americans, this sounds silly. In America, you flaunt your success. Fancier car, bigger house, etc. In America, that’s supposed to communicate, “Hey look, ain’t it great? With hard work and some luck, maybe you can do this too!” or taking a more cynical view, “Hey, I’m a person of means, so treat me accordingly.” But in the African village, doing this was tantamount to a slug in the nose (“Hey sucker, wanna fight?”). It’s all in your assumptions about what you are trying to communicate.
Reality is we judge based on the amount of details in the input to determine what’s being communicated. When communicating face-to-face we have not only the words, we have tonal inflections, facial expressions, gestures … tons of details from which to judge.
Online, all we have are the words, with maybe a bit of inflection given using bold, italics, and maybe a smiley or two. [:)] But that’s it. Far less detail from which to judge.
And like the huts example, we often may not know the underlying assumptions, so we guess at the assumptions and think the other guy’s nuts for saying 2+2 = 6 when in fact he was saying 2+4 = 6. Since he wasn’t explicit about his assumed second number, we assumed it was 2 and went ballistic. He thought everyone understood he was assuming the second number was 4 … and then wonders what’s the problem?
So cutting eac
Didn’t Olivia Newton John play a muse in Xanadu? Does she model RR too?
Mister-Know-It-All
A character in a segment on the old Rocky and Bullwinkle show wherein Mister-Know-It-All (played by Bullwinkle) gave advice on how to address various issues. I believe several on the forum may model their online countenance on this sterling example. [:)] So far no one is quite as entertaining as Bullwinkle was.
Maybe we take model railroading too seriously… then again… maybe we don’t take it seriously enough !