Musings on the the hobby and this forum

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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HOBBY

Defined: an activity normally outside of one’s occupation done for diversion, pleasure, and relaxation.

RAILROAD MODELLING

Defined: a hobby in which the person endeavours to replicate a scale example of a currently operational or an historical railroad using various skills, techniques, and materials. The goal, conventionally, is to approximate the reality to the extent possible within one’s means and abilities. The outcome tends not to rely on the opinions of onlookers for validation and worth unless it is presented for that purpose.

MODEL RAILROADING

Defined: common term used to denote the pursuit of enjoying scaled toy trains, not always prototypical, sometimes on an elaborate and highly functional mock-up or layout, and otherwise with simple and temporary orientations of track on available surfaces. Unlike railroad modelling, this pursuit is less restrictive and is even more subjective in that fidelity to a real or former prototype is not necessary. Its purpose is more fanciful or whimsical, and not meant to be a rigorous attempt to replicate the reality in detail.

TOYS

Defined: small implements, devices, replicas in scale of real items, meant for amusement and pleasure. They may operate realistically when provided with energy and a motive device, or may not be meant to move at all. Toys may be stuffed animals, dolls, cars, trains, planes, and other commonly found objects.

TOY TRAINS

Defined: any item, whether mechanically moved or static, that is a scale replica of a real or imagined locomotive or full train, extant or no longer existing, that is meant to be used for fun and amusement, as in a hobby.

FUN

Defined: a partially dissociative experience or emotion induced when excited

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Just like anything out in the world, everybody will relate better with some people than with others, and I see it on this forum a lot. It’s too bad that we can’t all accept each other despite what we like and just try to enjoy this hobby. Then again, if it were in our human nature to be forgiving of differences, then there would be no racism, sexism, and all other forms of separation that we see day to day.

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Just curious where you got these definitions from? This hobby has always been broken down into it’s various factions. It’s just more apparent now that we have the internet and forums. It’s kind of hard to argue via snail mail.

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Nice! Just got one thing to add to the Model Railroading defenition; FUN!!![:D]

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They’re my own, Loathar. They may resemble others, but that would be largely coincidental, although all that I am is from the works of others before me, here or elsewhere. I thought I would try to derive, as an exercise (perhaps in futility), a set of definitions that we might accept…even if we have to hold our noses. Just for the purpose of trying to find a method to keep our discourse oriented toward the topics, and not toward the utterer.

Even when we disagree we lose richness and opportunity sometimes if the discussion gets into the gutter and we can’t continue apace. Gutter balls are spectacular in that they hold our attention, but they don’t amount to much when we tally the score. I really dislike it when otherwise decent discussions get sidetracked into personal vitriol.

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Full Moon. May 31st.

Werewolves of London again…

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Selector I agree with what I think are your thoughts. This is a hobby that is supposed to be fun and relaxing. The conflict that has risen on this forum as of late has been sometimes created on purpose, sometimes created when poster is trying to promote healthy discussion, and sometimes from misinterpretation of what we are trying to say. The tone and the language used in our posts sometimes creates conflict. It puts people on the defensive and closes our mine to healthy discussion. Dave V’s post recently on 3 Mantras was very interesting, I hope he starts one on themes because it really has caused me to think on how I can improve my Modelling whether I do prototypic or a fantasy I see many ways to improve and hold my interest for the long term. Thank you all

Kevin[:)]

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If I may share…

Back in 2000-2002 while stationed in Ohio I joined the 6th Ohio Volunteer Militia (Guthrie Grays), a Civil War reenactment group. I’d been a member of the 148th Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry, a great unit, up until then. The 6th Ohio were a great bunch of guys, but the unit fell apart because of differing visions of what it should be. In fact, the whole Civil War hobby was being torn at that time.

The stitch counters (I’m not making this up) hand-made all their clothes, slept in the open, and criticized everything. The mainstreamers packed beers into coolers they covered with period blankets and wore machine-made uniforms. One side said “We must suffer like the real soldiers did so that we honor them.” The other side said “It’s just a hobby; let’s have fun!”

I fell in the middle, like I do in model railroading. I had some machine-made and some hand-made stuff. I slept in a shelter half or in the open, not a full tent. I tried to be as accurate as possible, but never forced others too. Eventually, the stitch-counters pushed too hard and the unit split in two.

My point? Not everyone has the same vision of what the hobby should be. We all want to have fun, but there’s no one standard for what is fun.

From the recent locked thread I get the impression some might think a guy like me is too busy being accurate to have fun. In fact, besides my family and friends, model railroading is the greatest joy in my life. Re-creating a railroad scene I was born too late to witness in person has been extremely fulfilling.

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Have you read some of the discourse on YouTube? [B)]

Unfortunately, some people are predisposed to argue. Egos are fragile and fuses are short. There are lot of angry folks in this world. It’s pretty amusing to think that most people expect entire nations to coexist peacefully when they can’t even get along with their own neighbors.

File that sad truth under “Nature: Human.”

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Selector-I guess I never really thought about the difference between a Model Railroader and a Railroad Modeller before. With those definitions, I’m definitely a Model Railroader. I don’t know that I can agree that this is the welcoming hobby that we all think it is. I can remember encountering more then a few folks with attitudes when I got started in the hobby 35 years ago. Looking back, I’m glad my love for trains won out and I stuck with it.

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Well, I can see we’re not all working off of the same definitions. Maybe that’s part of the problem. My version:

Hobby: I agree and would add not usually done for financial gain.

Railroad modelling: The building of models/minatures of railroad equipment, structures, settings, etc. that may or may not have moving parts/animation. Just as there are different schools of painting so there are different schools of railroad modeling, including but not limited to exact replication (all the details), impressionistic (less detail), fictional, fantasy, etc.

Model railroading: The building and operation of a model transportation system that simulates movement of people and goods using railroads. This could be done using Lionel 027, Plasticville structures, and grass mats; or highly detailed museum quality locomotives, tracks, structures, scenery; or something in between. Again there can be different schools of operation including exact replication (including paperwork), impressionistic (less paperwork), fictional, fantasy, etc.

Toys: I’m okay with this.

Toy Trains: I would add that these are intended for children, yeah I know who’s going to spend $2000 for a Big Boy that some kid is going to run around the floor and then stuff into a toy box. Maybe nominally intended for children or once intended for children.

Fun: I would stop after the first sentence.

Conflict:I would add that it also occurs when there is greed or desire to dominate.

Good will: To me good will means that I care about the well being of others and is extended without regard to merit.

Interests: I admit I don’t quite understand where you are going with this one. My interests are things I enjoy doing or learning about.

As someone (Winston Churchill?) once said, “We are two peoples separated by a common language.” I suspect part of the problem with some threads is due to our having slightly and not

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Selector,

I read your definitions with interest. I understand your motivation for this thread, given that all too many recent ones have deteriorated into rather uncivil affairs.

I would offer the following thoughts if I may.

Of course, however any given individual chooses to pursue it, the hobby is indeed “fun” for us as individuals. But having said that, clearly some people pursue their fun with greater passion than others, and feel strongly that their particular approach to the hobby is “the best one”. The hobby is fun, but given the amount of time, energy, and cash used in its pursuit, it can also be taken very seriously.

The nature of a forum like this is that every time we post something, we do so with the understanding that there is an implicit invitation to comment. While I’m no psychologist, I believe that it is a common human trait to want to “win people over” to your point of view. People with strongly held views (political, religious, and yes even model railroading) cannot resist the temptation / opportunity to preach their version of the gospel. Unfortunately, they often fail to promote their own views without simultaneously denigrating others’.

Civilities all too often go out the window for several reasons:

  1. some people feel compelled to preach their gospel
  2. most people rankle at being preached to
  3. the relative anonymity of the medium allows people to abandon the rules of civil discourse that they would probably follow were they face-to-face.

Generally speaking, the threads that are most likely to degenerate into flamethrowing spectacles are the ones that invite subjective “philosophical” responses (like this one [:-^]), rather than technical details. I wonder if the forum might be well served by a separate Debating Area where people can (civilly) engage in whatever topic is chosen for that week…let a topic run for a sp

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I’ve never had such philosphical thoughts or ideas about our hobby. I just do what I enjoy doing, making models and taking photos of them. I follow this forum to hopefully be able to learn something, share info that I might have and hear about new products.

Perhaps the OP with over 8200 posts on this forum spends too much time musing and not enough time modeling? To each his own I guess!

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It would be nice if they could…

Probably it is possible, but I suspect a natural half life is probably more likely, and perhaps even healthier for the forum in the ong run.

I think these tend to be at the opposite ends of the spectrum - either they are the more “serious” and often deeper-thought threads or the more superficial ones. Probably a human nature thing.

Maybe they don’t attract the folks who seem to revel in antagonizing someone just because they have opportunity.

I think that’s just another human nature thing. All broad-based special interests tend to subdivide into categories as they grow. Look at bikers (motorcyclists), for example. They’re one group, but have big internal divisions - Harley riders and everyone else [:D]!

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Great, yet another esoteric topic destined for a padlock.

Oh, and a hobby is simply a pursuit outside one’s regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation (per Webster). Seems like a few here are pursuing this hobby as though it IS their regular occupation.

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Hey, you’re missing a thread which is discussing HO and N scale elephants. Now there’s something you don’t get to talk about every day.

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MABruce,

Then you’re gonna LOVE the thread I just started![swg]

Seriously, if the philosophy ain’t for you, I get it. There are plenty of threads to go around.

Seems most of my hands-on project threads end up sinking to the bottom - too specific. At least these threads touch a broad audience.

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Paul, thanks for your thougtful reply. Fun is such a personal experience that it means different things to different people. Some of us, like my father, defines fun as success in a year’s crops in his garden. Although he enjoys gardening and is quite accomplished, he does it more out of character than for pleasure. His father raised him through the Depression and into the War. it was a time where people chipped-in and workede harder to get things done with less. What you didn’t have you made or grew. When I asked him a while back why he didn’t have toys or a hobby, he replied that he grew up during those times when such things were frivolous…unthinkable. Now, he could not enjoy the expense, nor could he justify it. His pleasure, such as it is, is in growing his own vegetables. Yet, it is a duty. He must.

Not so with a hobby. We do what we will, not what is required by custom or convention…at the risk of bearing the brunt of the critics among us. So, fun is tied to personal choice, and personal choice rests on the interests that one has in the dimensions that I list under that section…power, status, advancement, and so on. Note that interests may be tied to something as base (not basic) as security. I don’t want to get into academic discussions, but this is my field. My specialty is in conflict analysis and management, with a concentration in third party intervention in ethno-political conflict. In a nutshell, that is building trust between factions that have been at war, often within the confines of a nation.

If we don’t understand what the opposition’s interest are, we are not likely to say the things that will make them want to work with us i

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Nelson, I do not frequent the widely popular spaces on the internet due to my desire to avoid the angst I would feel for what goes on there. Ignorance is bliss. I only venture to youtube when someone posts a MRR or RR related video that promises something worthwile watching. I have almost always been pleasantly surprised in that regard.

Egos are highly fragile, mine among them. My fuse is usually quite damp and hard to light, but it is about at long as the quick on my little finger. [:-,]

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[quote user=“RRCanuck”]

Selector,

I read your definitions with interest… I believe that it is a common human trait to want to “win people over” to your point of view. People with strongly held views (political, religious, and yes even model railroading) cannot resist the temptation / opportunity to preach their version of the gospel. Unfortunately, they often fail to promote their own views without simultaneously denigrating others’.

Civilities all too often go out the window for several reasons:

  1. some people feel compelled to preach their gospel
  2. most people rankle at being preached to
  3. the relative anonymity of the medium allows people to abandon the rules of civil discourse that they would probably follow were they face-to-face.

Generally speaking, the threads that are most likely to degenerate into flamethrowing spectacles are the ones that invite subjective “philosophical” responses (like this one [:-^]), rather than technical details. I wonder if the forum might be well served by a separate Debating Area where people can (civilly) engage in whatever topic is chosen for that week…let a topic run for a specified period of time, then shut it down and pick another. Just a thought. I don’t know if it would work.

At the end of the day however, the problem is virtually impossible to fix. You can ask for civility and tolerance all you want, but I suspect that you won’t get it. There will always be a few individuals who can’t temper their enthusiasm. When things get out of control the only remedies that remain are thread-locking or banishment of individuals by the powers that be.

As is the nature of threads like this one, I’ve provided a lot of commentary but unfortunately, no answers. I share your hope that people will think twice before hitting the SEND button when they’ve composed a nasty comment in haste and anger. C