This concerns the route of three Amtrak trains, the Piedmont, the Carolinian, and the Crescent, relative to the track they run on between about Greensboro down to Charlotte. Specifically what used to be the ex-Southern main line.
At the North Carolina State Transport Museum in Spencer (great place!) I read that The N.C. Dept. of Transportation owns that stretch. But on page 59 of Amtrak’s Spring/Summer System Timetable, the Host Railroad is listed as “Amtrak.”
Who would like to weigh in on which option is right? Or, since this almost inevitably will lead to hair-splitting, which is the more correct: Amtrak or N.C. DOT?
I know this is picky but my relatives down there ask me about this sort of thing and I don’t want to lose face. - a.s.
Well . . . okay, but if that’s the case it’s the only U.S. State with the possible exception of Alaska I know of which owns all the active RR lines, even freight-only.
On the one hand, ownership is vital. On the other hand, if NS and CSX can set their schedules, they might be willing to go along – sounds like there might be some “free” infrastructure benefits. (Free only to the RR corp’s, that is.) Perhaps the rail corp’s don’t have to pay local property taxes anymore?? Just wonderin’.
I have been told that N.C. DOT took over most of the old Crescent route and a little bit of CSX around Cary and Raleigh (one of the three trains terminates in Raleigh) to avoid scheduling conflicts. They don’t want the NS or anyone else sidetracking their trains, especially the two regional-esque commuter-friendly runs (Piedmont and Carolinian) they subsidize, at least one of which would probably not exist if not for NC DOT funding.
Now, the actual operation of the trains belongs to Amtrak. Amtrak has always been very adamant that if there is any addiitonal passenger service to subsidize, they still get to operate the trains. Even so, I’ve been told that the engines belong to NC DOT and are in patriotic Tar Heel-type trim. But Amtrak has to run them. This is not NJT. Sounds to me like – quite legally – everyone gets a piece of the transport pie with the possible exception of the N.C. taxpayers.
Amazingly complicated how these things get! I guess my short answer is NC DOT makes at least one of the three trains possible and is probably responsible for the other, leaving the long-distance Crescent still running, but in the middle of the night Unless someone tells me that th
According the the North Carolina DOT website, the state owns the North Carolina Railroad. The 317-mile, state-owned corridor links Charlotte, Greensboro and Raleigh and extends to the state’s seaport at Morehead City.
I believe that this one route is the only rail route in NC that is owned by the state, per the post immediately above. The lease between the state and NS came up for renewal and was renegotiated within the last 5 years or so - you can bet that NC looked out for it’s passenger rail interests as part of that. I know it was mentioned in the print edition of Trains at least once - I’m sure that with some Internet searching you can find out a whole lot more about the actual details of this arrangement without such complicated speculation. Try the NCDOT website, and the various other forums that are devoted to that state and area of the country.
Also, if you roam around that website, check out the “Routes & Schedules” page - you’ll see that there are actually 4 different routes - partially ovelapping - now in use in NC - 1 that splits into 2 for the Florida trains, the Charlotte run, and the Crescent’s route to the west.
Another roughly similar arrangment is NS’ use* of the CNO&TP** - the “Rathole” line - which is owned by the City of Cincinnati, but that line is freight only (and of course it’s a city, not a state, that owns it).
The legal details are too complicated for me to summarize here. See the Wikipedia article on it, for example, if you really want to know.
The Piedmont uses all NCDOT equipment. The Carolinian uses Amtrak equipment. The Cresent is an Amtrak train. There is another Charlotte to Raleigh NCDOT train that will be going into service this spring as soon as the equipment is refurbished.
This is the Piedmont pulling into Charlotte.
There is a train planned from Raleigh to the mountains, but fiscal considerations have put it on hold, though I believe they are continuing to restore some of the stations along that route. I have also heard rumors of a train to the shore.
Not too long ago there was a news article about NCDOT begining court proceedings to enforce their currently unused right of way where contiguous businesses have begun to encroach.
Somewhat surprisingly (at least to me), the North Carolina Railroad Company has its own website, and a lot of info available (maps, brochures, etc.) at:
"1999: [clip] NCRR And Norfolk Southern reach an exclusive Trackage Rights Agreement for NS’s continuing freight and maintenance operations on the NCRR line for 15 years, renewable for an additional 30 years.
1998: The State of North Carolina agrees to buy out the remaining private shares of NCRR stock and completes the transaction, making it a privately run company, fully owned by the state." [emphasis added - PDN.]
Notice, no mention of Amtrak anyplace on this page, esp. not since Amtrak was formed in 1970, and took over most passenger train operations on May 15 (or was it the 1st ?), 1971 - but not the Southern Railways’ trains until some years later (not sure of exact date).
My home territory. The NC Railroad owns the track from Charlotte to Morehead City. Amtrak operates all passenger, even the NC trains. NS runs and maintains all the trackage.
Well, here’s a link to a somewhat more definitive - or at least more detailed - explanation from the FRA, in “Appendix E - Ownership and Operating Rights” of the January 2004 “Technical Monograph: Transportation Planning f****or the Richmond–Charlotte Railroad Corridor”:
Some of the pertinent points pertaining to Amtrak are as follows:
“Amtrak maintains operating agreements with NS and CSXT to operate its trains between Richmond and Charlotte. The major points of these agreements are highlighted below.” [page E-2, 4 of 7, 1st full para. at top]
Immediately following on the same page E-2 / 4 of 7 are 5 paragraphs pertaining to the “NORTH CAROLINA RAILROAD / NORFOLK SOUTHERN RAILWAY” arrangement.
The “AMTRAK AGREEMENT” with “NORFOLK SOUTHERN” is summarized in excerpts from 11 Sections of that agreement on pages E-4 (bottom) and E-5 (top) [pages 6 of 7 and 7 of 7, respectively).
I didn’t see any explicit mention of the NCDOT passenger trains in either of these summaries, although they were obviously running at the time. The language in the NCRR-NS summary appears to be broad enough to allow passenger trains to operate over the NCRR, without saying whose passenger trains they would or might be - i.e., apparently could be either NCRR’s, NCDOT’s, or Amtrak’s, or a combin
I had not checked every Amtrak timetable listing as to what road hosts the trains, so I missed one that indicates that Amtrak is the host road in N. C. The current timetable does show that NS is the host road for the Crescent all the way from Alexandria to New Orleans and for the two day trains between Selma and Charlotte. It ignores the arrangement between NS and CSX between Raleigh and Cary (KAREee); perhaps that would be too involved for most of Amtrak’s passengers; indeed, I have never been able to remember which road (North Carolina RR or SAL) owned which track. We cannot trust the Amtrak timetable listings completely; as I remarked in another post, the listing for the Cardinal errs in stating that the handoff point to the Buckingham Branch is at Culpeper instead of at Orange, where the C&O line from Gordonsville is connected to the Southern. If we want to be more precise, we could say that the CSX/NS change is at AF Tower instead of at Alexandria.
Between Cary and Raleigh, NCRR owns track 2. Track 2 is maintained by NS, and track one is maintained by CSX. Track one is usually kept in a lower quality condition due to that. Took them forever to upgrade their side to welded rail. We ran on that rickety crap jointed rail for years. Smooth ride into Raleigh, but better hold on coming back west.
Thanks, Namerifrats. Now I know when I rode on trackage rights and when I did not. Neither the SAL nor the Sou employee timetable specified which track is which. My first trip in this area was in 1941 when I rode (with my mother and two brothers) from Camden, S. C., to Raleigh and on to McKenney, Va., and from Petersburg, Va., back to Camden.
Now, a question. Last year, my wife and I were going from Jacksonville to New York on the Silver Star. Between Raleigh and Selma, I noticed landside signals that were set up but not in service. Has the NS put ABS or CTC into service on the line east of Greensboro?
The line east of Greensboro is now CTC from Greensboro to Selma, allowing 79 track speeds. CTC paid for by the state, along with several new and several longer sidings. If you want to really see what that looks like make a visit to Mebane, NC where we rip through the center of this small town, with parallel streets very close on both sides, and 4 crossings at 79. We do it elsewhere, but it always seems so much faster in Mebane then elsewhere.
I was privileged top be one of the last 75 or so private stockholders in the NCRR. Bought 100 shares at about $18 per share in about 1992 and was bought out at about $36, if I recall in '98. I attended the very last shareholders meeting where we voted to sell, not that we really had a choice, since the state controlled the vast majority of the shares already. To collect, you had to turn in your share certificates, but the were nice enough to neatly void them and they then returned them as historical momentos. Mine is framed and hanging in my home now.
