Lynda, et al.: The early FT’s were AB sets drawbarred together. The inconvenience of shopping the pair for a job on one or the other soon became apparent. Later FT’s and all future F series were equipped with couplers and could be shifted around as needed. Many were ordered as ABA’s some as ABBA’s but as time went on they were shifted around as to Hp. need vs. availability of units. This pic was late '50s or into the '60’s. Possibly up to around the merger in '70, eh? jc5729
This photo was almost certainly taken before 1967 for two reasons: GN went to Big Sky Blue livery in 1967; and 352C (the lead loco) was traded in to EMD Sept. 9, 1967. I’ll go out on a limb here and say it was taken 1966 or earlier because that appears like an observation car on the backend. Use of these was discontinued that year.
[added after initial post] In 1962 a simplified paint scheme appeared on the Empire Builder’s Passenger Fs. This scheme featured no gold strips, as shown in the first posted photo. So, I believe the photo was taken between 1955 (when the long great dome car was added [see 4th car from end]) and 1962.
I’ve been trying to pin it down more closely, but without luck so far. I don’t know how many care about this stuff, but it’s fun researching.
Here’s another shot of the same train (note the small tree in foreground).
Lynda
Lynda, et al,
Your question is a good one that exposes one bit of diesel model nit-picking. GN 352 is a late-model F3. It was built in late 1947. Some rosters list these as “F-5’s”, a term never used by EMD, but applied by railfans and perhaps the RR itself. Another classifiction of this model is as an F-3, phase 4.
The F-3 designation could be critical here. A key difference between F-3’s and F-7’s was the move from manual transition (part of the electrical control system) to automatic transition. We’ll need to get someone digging deeper into EMD material to explain the difference AND whether the GN’s late F-3’s might have gotten the automatic transition. Meanwhile, the difference in transition systems (sort of like the difference between car transmissions–one requires human action to effect, the other happens “automatically”) is why many railroads did not mix their F-3’s with F-7’s and F-9’s–at least not until an upgrade of the F-3.
Externally, the late F-3’s looked like F-7’s–horizontal slit grills replacing chicken wire and carbody lovers replacing chicken wire filter openings, low radiator fan housings. The one production feature that usually separates the F-3’s and F-7’s–the dynamic brake hatch (F-3’s used a pair of rectangular, screened, openings; F-7’s used 36" (early) or 48" (late, phase 2) fans–is missing from the GN passenger units. As noted by a previous poster, GN passenger units did not have dynamic brakes.
What this means is that the photo of the Empire Builder with four F-units probably has four F-3’s of various (at least two) production phases.
Beaver,
I’m definitely no F aficionado; so, my hat’s off to you on this information.
Thank you for providing these excellent tidbits. (See my additional comments below, which were added after your post.)
Lynda
Lynda and other interested GN fans,
Have you looked at the Great Northern RR Historical Society http://www.gnrhs.org/ ?
There is also apparently a great deal of information at this site also: http://www.gngoat.org/
I might be tempted to spend a lot of time at these 2 sites, but then I couldn’t spend time learning about my favorite RR. Maybe some day.
FT
ft-fan … Thank you. I’ve been to Lindsey Korst’s site many times, but your mention of it had me going there again, and I found mention of “our” photo. Lindsey says of it:
This official portrait, photographed in the early morning, shows the eastbound Empire Builder drifting downgrade from Marias Pass at Bison, MT with Glacier National Park in the background. Photo taken in 1957 by Great Northern Railway.
Lynda
Yep, its on the GNRHS site, too, just click on Empire Builder. It shows more of the background which is spectacular.
FT
Wow, everyone. Fabulous on topic discussion… I have learned so much. Jeesh… who ever thought there was so much interesting stuff about 'dem diesels (70% steem here!!!). Hehhehehe. Seriously, great, interesting discussion. One of the best postings on the forum in weeks. Good job all, and way to keep it positive, interesting and collegial!
Brian
It’s my understanding that passenger F3s and F7s in the 350 series, which is the series shown pulling the Builder in the photo, were ordered as three-unit ABA (coupled) sets. The series also included three-unit sets of two FTs (A and B, ordered and run initially as two-unit sets) to which an F7A was added, e.g. FT A-B nos. 375A&B (from 250A&B) plus F7A no. 375C.
Freight FT/F3/F7 power in the 400 series was ordered as four-unit ABBA sets. None of the passenger sets in other series were ordered as ABBA, but power needs for the '55 Builder (and occasionally others) required four (or more) 1500hp units, resulting in two or more Bs between the A bookends.
Sprinkled through the aforementioned Shine book is a history of the units in the various power series, including the renumbering that accompanied shifting of power from freight to passenger service and back.
True, but without unit numbers and despite the variety of rooftop appliances, I think the odds favor a single phase. All but 6 of GN’s 42 F3s assigned to passenger service in the 350 series were built in the period October through December, 1947, which probably covers a single production phase. The exceptions were 359A&C (former 225 & 226, blt 11/46); 368A&B (former 266A&B, blt 10/48); and 369A&B (former 266A&B, blt 10/48). Of course, the Bs and rear A unit could be from those exceptions. Too bad GN only rarely numbered their passenger Bs…
Yes, I can confirm that. In my higher resolution version of this photo I can tell that is definitely a Coulee Observation on the end. I personally liked the 1951 Mountain series observations better. I can’t believe they built the Mountains and then only ran them for four years.
This photo is so common, I am guessing that this was THE publicity photo taken in summer of 1956 for advertising the the dome cars. All dome cars were added in 1955, not just the full dome. As near as I can tell the first dome coaches were put in the train on July 30, 1955. Other than the dome coaches the train at this time was still made up of the 1951 Mid-Century Empire Builder cars. The great dome and Coulee observation cars were finally added in October. That means this photo (with mountain flowers and no snow on the mountains) could not have been taken before summer of 1956.
There is tons of good information and pictures of the Empire Builder (and all other GN passenger trains) in “Great Northern Pictorial Volume 3” by John Strauss Jr.
Lynda, I dug back to your question because I found another great picture for you. Trains Magazine issue July 2006 has a 2 page (pp86,87)spread shot taken 6:24 a.m. on May 30, 1968 at the Minneapolis station. It shows 2 trains in simplified color scheme (without the gold stripes). The Winnipeg Limited departing with 2 E7’s, and, the Empire Builder waiting its turn to depart with an F3A, F7B, F3B, F7A. Happy railroading, jc5729