How common was it for Great Northern to configure passenger trains with mixed F3A-F7B-F3B-F7A locomotives, as depicted in the photo below (warning: large photo)?
Lynda
Can’t answer your question, but I love that classic photo!
[#ditto]
The simple answer is horsepower. GN passenger F3s and F7s (all numbered in the 350 series through 1960) and were rated at 1500 hp; the F3s were purchased primarily in 1947 and the F7s in 1950, and there weren’t a lot of mechanical differences between them. That pool of horsepower was responsible for pulling the Builder, Fast Mail, and Oriental Limited/Western Star.
I don’t know if there’s a more complex answer. [:)]
The 350-series roster and a general timeline of power acquisiton are shown on pp. 62 and 63 of Joe Shine’s GN Color Pictorial, v. 1, and Ben Ringnalda’s site has another listing of GN F units at http://www.greatnorthernempire.net/ under Rosters > Diesel Locomotives > EMD.
Thank you, Shilshole.
I practically live on Ben Ringnalda’s most excellent website. In fact, I went there first to find 352C.
It seemed curious to me the locos were configured in alternating F3-F7-F3-F7 fashion. For whatever reason, I figured the F3 A&B units would be coupled, as would the F7s.
Thank you again for being patient with a dumb girl.
Lynda
Lynda, This is my first GN loco sound and all. It was a New Years present to myself. My husband thought that it was too bright so he weathered it.
Sue
Lynda,
I have to agree with the comment that this is a great photo. Thanks for putting it up here for us to see.
I have to disagree with the following statement:
Your postings on this forum show you to be anything but that. I look at that picture and see “F units”, I don’t even know how to tell which are F3’s or F7’s or F whatevers. I just like the look of F units.
Just my 2 cents worth.
FT
My guess (and that’s all it is) is that it was pretty common since the units would have all been assigned to the same passenger pool. They were the same HP, probably geared identically and all had dynamic brakes. What’s to keep them from being assigned to the same train.
On SP’s Coast Line, it was quite common for SP to mix E-7’s, PA/PB’s, E-9’s and the lone E-8 quite indiscriminately.
Andre
Sue,
I’m green with envy! [:P] Your husband did a spectacular job weathering it.
I had a bid down on a Tenshodo 4-8-4, but chickened out when it hit the $250 mark. I know I’ll inevitably have to bite the big bullet for one, but there’re too many other items that I really need.
ft-fan,
Thank you for the kind words. I’ve got that photo up as wallpaper on my laptop. Like you, I’ve always been a sucker for a good looking F unit. However, I managed to stay out of the Alco-EMD debate. PAs just don’t do it for me. On a somewhat different note, I just picked up a “leased” NP PK2 SW9/1200. It’ll be the one man out amongst all that Omaha orange and Pullman Green. [:D]
Andre,
Thank you, too. As I said, it was a naive question.
Lynda
Lynda,
The GN passenger service was based on horsepower requirements. The 1947 EB(first streamliner) was powered by a pair of 2,000 hp E7A’s. The 4,000 hp combination was not enought to maintain train speed over Marias Pass, and the traction motors overheated. As consist size increased, The GN was forced to try other options, and eventually dedicated 4,500 hp ABA sets of F3 and F7 locomotives were assigned to the trans-con trains like the EB, Western Star, and Fast Mail. The combination of 4 extra tracxtion motors and 500 hp seemed to fix the problems. Most of these engines were assigned to Havre, MT and the traditional changing of engines became a fixture at Havre.
The Western Star and Fast Mail were combined and 4-5 units could be seen on these trains west of Havre. Also ‘through’ diesel service started when the electification was pulled down on the Cascade Tunnel. With the advent of larger trains due to dome cars on the EB, it to required at least 4 units over the Rockies or the climb to the Cascade Tunnel. F3 and F7 models were freely mixed together to build the required ‘power’ for each train. Sometimes only 3 units would be seen if traffic was low, and sometimes an extra booster would be added in the winter for extra train heat capacity(later some old B units would be gutted and rebuilt into S/G cars). I never remember seeing ‘pure’ sets in the 60’s.
Jim
Ah. Simply luck of the draw. GN initially purchased its passenger Fs in A-B-A sets and purchased additional booster B’s separately. None were drawbar-equipped, so any Bs could be placed between any As, as needed. On that photo, it looked like someone at GN was interested in order but not symmetry. Or something.
One other thing: some of the F3As received F7-type grills, so that’s not always a diagnostic spotting feature.
jrbernier,
Thank you so much. I’ve done some research on Havre operations for another project, but don’t recall coming across the specifics you’ve provided. Of course, I was more concerned at the time with the changeover between P-2 and S-2 class steam.
Lynda
Aha - that I did know. That’s why I researched 352C before I opened my pie-hole. [:D]
Thank you again. I did not know GN purchased F units as A-B-A sets.
Lynda
Well, I would say all of those are F3s. Especially since I think the rear unit is number 266 or 268 which were both F3s. What am I missing that identifies them as F7s?
Reguardless, the locomotives are 1947-1950 vintage pulling a 1955 consist Empire Builder. They have had plenty of time and opportunity to be modified in the GNs shops. The snow plow pilots, mixed high-low vents, Leslie 3 chime horns, spark arrestors, and winterization hatches are all indicators they have been to the shops at least a few times. What I find surprising is that none of them seem to have dynamic brakes. That would truely show if there were any F7s in the mix or not. This same photo is on page 364 of “The Great Northern Railway A pictorial Study” by Charles & Dorthy Wood, PFM 1979.\
P.S. Looks like several posts since I began researching this… So it seems I’m a bit late.
I love the F’s too and thanks for the picture.
A few years ago I was able to have a visit of an old engineer of the Empire Builder. As already stated, it was basicly a pool of like horse power. Really nothing more or less. And if memory serves…
The GN tried running the E’s (I think both 7’s & 8’s) on the Empire Builder unsuccessfully. The major problem was the gearing, affecting the HP to weight ratio thing. I think this is basically a “torque” and “stress” scenario when it came down to getting the HP on the rails and still having the traction motor running efficiently, which they didn’t so the F’s took center stage.
Just my 2 cents…And I really do hope memory did serve!
Hey Lynda,
Just passing through, love the photo.[:)]
Very close. GN had 8 E7s (all As, no E8s), pulled from Builder service in 1950 when the experiment with E7-Fbooster(s)-E7 power over the Rockies failed, later assigned to Seattle-Portland and Seattle-Vancouver (International) service, as well as to the Badger and (I think) Gopher.
Yes GN figured if E-units worked for the Burlington they would work for them. They were fine in the relatively flatlands of MN-ND and eastern Montana, but not so hot (or too hot to be accurate I guess, since they tended to overheat) in the mountains. The 500’s then went to local service, here in MN they were on both the Badger and Gopher - the Badger was a morning train and the Gopher a limited stop evening train, both connecting Mpls/St.Paul and Duluth/Superior, so the same engines could do a round trip each day. I rode the Badger to Superior in 1969 by the way.[:)]
GN passenger F’s did not have dynamic braking gear. That space was taken up by a 600 gallon ‘hatch tank’ for boiler water. They were equipped with pumping equipment for pumping boiler water between units or even from a ‘water baggage’ car. The F3A and F7A units only had the 200-300 gallons of boiler water that was included with the Vapor-Clarkson S/G units. This lack of Dynamic Braking forced stops at the bottom long grades to let the wheels/brake shoes cool down. This same operational problem happened with the E7 engines as they did not have dynamic braking either. The later SDP40/45 engines did have dynamic brakes. GN passenger F’s ranged from the 250 series(starting with AB sets of passenger FT’s), up through the 350 series of F3 and F7 engines(the GN classified them as P3 and P7 engines).
The E7A fleet numbered 13 engines:
- 10 engines for the Empire Builder(delivered as the 500AB-504AB, and renumbered to 500-509)
- 3 additional engines(510-512) ordered for the 2 ‘International’ sets and the single ‘Red River’ set of mini streamliners.
Jim Bernier
AIUI, some of the Fs from the 250 series were renumbered into the 350 series for passenger service. But I could well be wrong…
Whoops! You’re right. (Where did I get that 8 from? I rode the International twice, once behind an E7 and later behind a boiler-equipped GP-9.)