Are you old enough to have lived through the Apple vs. Atari vs. Commodore vs. Radio Shack computer controversy of the early to late 1980’s? Things today are no different when it comes to arguing about which is the best DCC system. There is no “Best” DCC system except in the opinions of the owners, and arguing about them here over and over again accomplishes absolutely nothing.
Yes that line is from the Bard. Hamlet I think. How do I rememebr this? Well, you ever see that movie where Danny Devito tries to teach a bunch of Army recruits so they can pass their GED? Yeah…hehe they do Hamlet.
Anyway, as for the topic at hand, the only rivalry between Digitrax and NCE I am aware of is one by the users. I don’t think Jim Scorse has any specific animosty towards the Irelands. Digitrax is the top selling system and NCE is probably the second best selling system in the US. I control my system with Digitrax but I use plenty of NCE decoders and accessories. They both make good stuff.
–Randy
D&RGWRR476,
Well, the bugs I’ve found with Digitrax deal more with unexplainable operation. For example, about once per operation, an operator with a radio throttle will lose control of their train in the middle of switching out a yard or running on the main. One must quickly plug back in, and then it will automatically reaquire it. This happens both at my club (Chief) and my home layout (Zephyr).
Another problem is the old Soundtraxx “shuffe” that would occasionally occur. The loco would be running, the suddenly go into reverse, then back into forward for no particular reason. I asked Soundtraxx, and they blamed Digitrax. I asked Digitrax, and they blamed Soundtraxx. I don’t know who’s to blame, but there are no such problems with any other decoder…even the new Soundtraxx Tsunami’s. But it also apparently only happens on Digitrax layouts, so who knows? It’s annoying, but not impossible to live with.
At the club, we’ve also had some lemons for DT400R throttles. One guy’s throttle has been returned at least twice because the radio keeps conking out. Another had to return his DT400 because his LCD screen was messed up (it displayed random dots, etc.), but he might have dropped the thing once or twice without telling us.
We’ve also had to return a couple DT’s over the years for encoder replacement. The DT100’s were terrible at this, while the DT300 and DT400’s are much, much better…but one or two have been returned to get these replaced.
For high end problems, the block detection can be wonky at times. I seem to get some “false postives”, but I don’t know if that’s my Railroad&Co. software or the Digitrax BDL168 detector.
Digitrax isn’t perfect. I still would absolutely choose it again, as I am very happy with it overall. But it does have little “quirks” that can make you scratch your
cacole,
I think you’re wrong, this kind of debate is needed. Arguing about the products allows others to see the pros and cons of each system. It’s educational, as long as it doesn’t get personal.
If arguing about things is banned, this forum will get very quiet, very quickly…
Paul A. Cutler III
Weather Or No Go New Haven
Amen, Paul. We can surely argue without being argumentative. [:)]
Paul & Crandell,
Perhaps this is just semantics but I prefer to “discuss” rather than argue. Arguing usually has the connotation that both parties have their defenses up and one is trying to get the upper hand on his or her “opponent”. Discussion carries the idea of a more equal “exchange” of information and ideas between persons or groups, to the benefit of all partaking in the exercise. That’s how I try and approach these kind of scenarios.
Tom
tstage,
I agree that discussing is always better than arguing. However, to say that arguing “accomplishes absolutely nothing” is incorrect. A good debate or argument can force the debaters to dig into the pros and cons of any issue, resulting in a more complete understanding of the issue at hand.
I have learned far more about this hobby from arguments/debate threads then I ever have from the more benign “How many locos do you own?”-type of threads. [:)]
Paul A. Cutler III
Weather Or No Go New Haven
I understand, Tom.
I use the term in its logical sense. An argument in logic must have a certain form and must have conclusions that necessarily follow from the several premises. I do see that not all “arguments” here are logical, so “discussion” is an eminently suitable substitute. [:D]
Care to “debate” the matter?[(-D]
-Crandell
I figured that’s probably what you two meant but just wanted to be sure. [:)] I agree. I good “debate” can be both informative and serve to solidify (or unsettle) ones convictions on a particular topic.
And I think that this forum is set up as such to promote a more debate-orientated “discussion” of particular topics because we:
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Post our comments,
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Listen to the points-of-view of others and possible rebuttals, then
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Respond with our counter-rebut.
The challenge is to keep the dialogue (another good word) during these debates between posters in that debate-orientated framework. This helps keep the topic of discussion on track and less likely to become argumentative.
Tom
Most animosity, IMHO, comes from someone trying to defend and justify why they purchased a particular system. If you’ve gone out and spent $200-$600 on a system and accessories, you want to justify, to yourself and others, why you made that choice. Add to this, what happens to someone’s ego when another person points out shortcomings in their choice or even worse when the purchaser realizes that what they bought does perform up to expectations or that he can’t get it to operate correctly.
Personally, my issue centers around those forum members who what to espouse on the benefits of their favorite system and the shortcomings of the other system, yet have no experience using the other system. These people are the worst ones to provide advice or feedback to someone who posts the question about which system to buy. Instead of providing an unbiased perspective, these people are out to justify why they chose what they did, and to stroke their ego by looking like the
Paul,
While you’re researching this, go beyond this forum and see how many people have changed from NCE to D and how many have changed from D to NCE. Also, if people have ‘upgraded’ from another system like Bachman DCC or Prodigy, which system did they changed. I get the digest from both the Digitrax yahoogroup and NCE yahoogroup, and based on my observations of posting, there are more people who change from D to NCE than vice versa. The reasons vary, but the flow from one to another seems to be greater in one direction than the other.
jktrains
JKTrains, that makes perfect sense if you think about it. Until very recently the entry level NCE system was priced equal or higher to the upper-end Digitrax systems. As a consequence the Digitrax installed base is widely considered to be significantly larger than the NCE installed base(I have heard double quoted) . I also think that a lot of folks buy Digitrax without even knowing about the existence of NCE. Certainly I have seen a lot more Digitrax LHS dealers. In fact I don’t think I have ever been into store that carried NCE.
So until recently I think it is fair to say that NCE was positioned as the “high-end” but expensive DCC player, whereas Digitrax appealed to the more budget conscious. When I purchased my Zephyr, I wanted to get into DCC but had no intention of paying $300 to $500 for something that I was not 100% sure I was going to enjoy.
So several things contribute to this.
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If the same % switch then there will be more flowing from the large group to the small.
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Many only find out about NCE after they have been in DCC for a while.
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After using a starter system and wanting to upgrade NCE is positioned as the high-end so are an obvious choice. Think about all those folks that cut their teeth on old Digitrax Big-Boy systems.
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Once invested in a “high-end” system, not many are going to trade-down unless they are really fed up.
Digitrax recognized that if you can entice someone with an entry level system then there is a good chance that they will then develop brand loyalty and grow that system. Looking back on the timing of the Zephyr launch some 5 years ago, I would say that it was more of an effort to not lose business to the Atlas, Bachmann and MRC entry level systems that were starting to show up and dramatically undercut the cost of getting into DCC. The rapid growth of the entry level DCC market must have scared-the-heck out of NCE&
Yes we should care and yes it can be cordial.
Thinking of the other person and forgetting ones self is the key. It’s good if we can help a fellow modeler make a choice that really works best for him/her.
DCC is an investment that many will only make once. Sure, most will be relatively happy with whatever they buy, but if we can help pin-point that one system that will be best for their unique situation, then we will have done them a real service. I wish that I had received better input when I first started.
Many of you do a great job in honestly and helpfully guiding others. I think that the few who throw out the flaming darts of self-serving nonsense are easily detected and ignored by the ones seeking guidance.
JK, I hear where you are coming from, but unfortunately there are very few people that have really used both systems to the extent that they have really good first hand experience. I have to say that I interpret what you write as being, “I’m the only one qualified to offer an opinion based on my experience with both systems, and NCE is the clear choice”. I have no issue at all with you forming that opinion at all, NCE makes a great system and a worthy choice for any modell
[quote user=“simon1966”]
JK, I hear where you are coming from, but unfortunately there are very few people that have really used both systems to the extent that they have really good first hand experience. I have to say that I interpret what you write as being, “I’m the only one qualified to offer an opinion based on my experience with both systems, and NCE is the clear choice”. I have no issue at all with you forming that opinion at all, NCE makes a great system and a wor
OK, since this is becoming a very popular thread, I thought I might as well give my 2 cents worth!
I do think it’s like Apple and PC in a sense. One is for ‘serious’ business use and with the ‘bulletproof’ and ‘It Ain’t Broken, don’t fix it’ philosophy and one with all the latest improvement and aim to have the ‘fun’ element in their design philosophy. Needless to say, Digitrax is the PC of the two.
IMHO, Digitrax is a bulletproof system and it’s somewhat ancient with regars to the latest NMRA standards but it’s popular with clubs because of it’s expansion potential and since it’s popular with clubs, it gets trickle down to individual members and the people they influence. Where as NCE is the more advanced of the 2 in terms of the latest trend and standards and I would say it’s more fun to use and somewhat easier as well and I think it’s better for lonewolves and beginners/intermediates.
They both great companies with excellent products either a DCC system or decoders but I seriously find the Digitrax’s system way too complicated even for an electrical engineer. I think for the majority of the emerging market and the current trend, I think the dark horse is MRC and I think they their money on the right number! With DCC getting more popular, their system is cheap, complete and simple and with the technology advancements, people aren’t replying on Club’s advice as much as what it used to be so people will slowly discover the new world with MRC or the new Bachmann Nemesis (spelling?)!
As to the ‘proprietary’ nature of Loconet - there is a free personal edition which can accomplish just about anything you want to do and costs you nothing - in fact you can download the document from the Digitrax web site. The only thing ‘proprietary’ is the actual command sequences, the electrical specs for the bus are freely stated.
You only need to license Loconet if you intend to produce commercial products. This hasn’t hampered the development of Loconet compatible products - in fact there are MORE third party options for Loconet than any other system. Including plenty fo products that compete directly with ones that Digitrax offers. I had the chance to speak to one of these third parties at length and while I can’t say the exact cost of these royalties, it comes out to pennies (as in less than 10) per device that retaisl for $80. No way is Digitrax going to get rich on licening schemes like this. At the same time, the JMRI project has a full implementation of Loconet and there AJ gave his blessing.
–Randy
That is a really good point and illustrates one of the shortcomings of this written format. I have to say that I totally interpreted your post as a dig against D. In the past, myself and others have been guilty of responding to such posts in a defensive way. In some strange way the thread has gone full circle and I have illustrated myself the very issue that I was enquiring about in the first place.
I think also there are some red-flag type issues that are trigger points. Digitrax deservedly has a reputation for terrible manuals. The Zephyr manual is a vast improvement over the Super Empire Builder(the two I have), but I would not classify either of them as Shakespeare. I’m not a big manual reader and rarely if ever referred to the technical documentation once I was up and running so the manual quality has not been a big deal for me. IMO if you want to give Digitrax a fair shake during a purchase decision the very last thing you should do is make a decision based on the manual as this will not give you a good impression of how easy the system is to actually run.
I hesitate to bring this up but I’ve been wondering about it and maybe this is the appropriate thead for it.
Someone knowledgeable in the DCC industry told me that there are “plants” on some forums whose purpose it is to tout their product and belittle other products. Does this really happen? I’d like to think not, but yet some posts make you wonder.
simon1966,
Do you really want Shakespeare writing DCC manuals?
“Alas, poor decoder. I knew it well, Horatio.”
“Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of short circuits, or by removing the problem, end them.”
“A throttle. A throttle! My kingdom for a throttle!”
And so on. [:D]
Paul A. Cutler III
Weather Or No Go New Haven