My MR club has constructed a new addition to the layout, incorportating a reversing wye, a stub yard, A John Allen switching puzzle, and Intermodal yard. Not knowing off hand knowledge of real life rail ops, where should an interlocking tower (or towers) be placed in conjunction of the scemetic below? We are also open to suggestions about the proposed trackplan. Drawing not completely to scale… And, the upper portion of the drawing is only 1/3 of the module layout.
I’d think it’d look the best between the two tracks that lead to the lower right, above the track that leads to the upper right. If you ignore tracks one and two (gotta love Ntrak and their goofy three track main) that seems to be the most realistic place to add one.
And are you sure you really want to add a Timesaver to a layout? John himself called it a neat game, but something that was completely unrealistic; something that real railroads would avoid like the plague.
If you are modeling an intermodal yard, the interlocking tower can be installed between the intermodal lead and the stub yard (at top,) completely outside the Y tracks. Then, board it up and cover the accessible areas with tags. The gangstas mark their territories, while reserving their artistic talent for rolling stock.
The placement logic is that the designers would want to keep the action in front of the tower op, while keeping the mechanical linkages to switch points as short and straightforward as possible. Many towers had one windowless wall, making that side of the tower effectively blind.
The logic for boarding it up is time-based. Intermodal operations came in after the demise of mechanical interlocking. Nowadays, the mainline switches are controlled by a CTC operator, possibly several states away. The yard switches, if powered, are controlled by somebody with a pocket protector sitting in front of a console in the back room of the yard office. (Ain’t modern electronics wonderful?) OTOH, if the yard is small, the switches are probably manually operated by the yardfolks handling the remote controls for the crewless (and possibly cabless) switchers.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with electrical interlocking simulating mechanical interlocking)
Well, the puzzle was laid by one member many years ago, and he loves it. We suggested doing away with it, especially since he is the only one interested in operating on it, but he fussed and fussed, so we let him have his game…
The turnout controls will be using machines only on the Wye module. The stubyard module will be manual throws. As for the placement of the interlocking tower, I think we’ll put it at the right of the wye track, between the two yard leads.
The question boils down to what type of track the yards are connected to. There is no access shown for the lower two tracks, so they don’t enter the picture here, assuming that is intentional and not an oversite.
If track connected to the yards is viewed as a yard lead track within yard limits, no interlocking tower would be needed.
If the track is a main track, it would probably require four signal masks (distant and home) with three arms on each, one for sgraight, and one for each branching route. In addition, you would have four sets on switches and switch locks. Track leaving the wye (assuming it is a slow speed track) would need two home signals, plus a switch and swith lock. The other yard lead would need just a home signal. (I am ignoring any possible derails you might want to add.)
Since most signals and switches are on the main track, the tower would probably inside the wye center on that track. That would allow most of the levers and cable to run along that track. The tower would probably need to be wide enough so the operator could view the other tracks through a window beside the locking beds.
The lower two tracks are east and west mains, and the upper main track is considered the “commodities” track, which acts as every branch, spur, junction whatever. The idea the club placed on the operation, was that whether it be an eastbound or westbound train, the train would make a lap around the layout toward it’s destination, and enter the commodities track via crossovers (three locations on the layout) to reach it’s destination. The commodities track is the only bi-directional track on the layout. Signals are to be included with the proposed operations above, and the actual location of the interlocking tower is the biggest concern,&n
Logic dictates the stub yard came first then the switch puzzle.
So I would place a yard tower between the stub yard and puzzle.
Its a big yard so the tower though older style is still probably operating and large with a modern ish mimic pannel and computers for the area signal man, and offices for the yardmaster and area manager and their respective staff
I do have a problem with the inter-modal yard not being connected to the rest of the yards and having to foul the main line to move between the three and not having easy access to Loco.
It doesn’t make sense as drawn because of the lack of logical yard and main line connections.
It is possible that there may have been a “B” cabin facing across the main lines to the yard at the yard entrance given the re signaling for the new inter-modal yard this is likely to be a fairly modern structure.
Your signals will also reflect the moving with the times aspect as well with older signals in the main yard area and more modern types at the yard entrance due to the re signaling for the inter-modal yard.
They won’t just pull the older ones out if they still work well
The lower two tracks are east and west mains, and the upper main track is considered the “commodities” track, which acts as every branch, spur, junction whatever. The idea the club placed on the operation, was that whether it be an eastbound or westbound train, the train would make a lap around the layout toward it’s destination, and enter the commodities track via crossovers (three locations on the layout) to reach it’s destination. The commodities track is the only bi-directional track on the layout. Signals are to be included with the proposed operations above, and the actual location of the interlocking tower is
As determined by the Club, the commodities track, isn’t supposed to be percieved, as being located right next to the mainlines. Such as a destination off of a mainline, many yards, or a few miles apart. This can be confusing because we are looking at sets of tracks right next to each other, and have to remember, it is a track by itself. (Hey if I would have designed the layout, it would have been a single or double mainline, with prototypical spurs and branchlines!)
I agree with you John, and to make things even more difficult in this plan; is that we share all time periods on the layout, so unfortunately,
Just so you know where I am coming from I have used in my mind the puzzle as an industrial area with a direct connection to the yard.
I still have trouble with the concept that it is not a 3 track main line
If it keeps some one in the club happy the puzzle has too stay maybe nominate him as the yard master he can then carry out shunting operations to his hearts content without bothering any one[:-,]
7 bogie wagons per train where did you get that kind of room( I am happy if I can get room for 8 UK 4 wheeled wagons and an 0-6-0T for a train )
The era problem is not the real issue all clubs have that problem can get very interesting when it becomes multinational problem as well like it often does in AUS.
Seeing your last comment better find room for a permanent siding for the disaster container, crew coach and crane with loco on stand by, and one of those big tools that looks like an old fashioned can opener[:D]
Just to confuse things further I work for the 12"=1’ railways as a signal maintainer which may or may not colour my thoughts I leave you to judge that one.
Those yard connections really do need looking at there must be a way of sorting at least that bit out without loosing too much room and making the thing work right
The Old Dog has often thought that a layout should be a series of sections or modulars that can be taken about easily and re-assembled in different orders. Note that not all available sections would need to ne included in every version. For example, in some versions the intermodal yard might be replaced with a freight station and a set of team tracks. By the same token, the structures can be build on small pieces of plywood. The propane dealer could easily be replaced with say a coal yard when you desire to change the era. One might also need to go through and change out the motor vehicles.
As for the third track problem, it is more a problem with the drawing then the layout. When you build the scene, use heavy rail and clean ballest for the mainlines. Then use lighter rail, dirty ballest, and a lower ROW for the commmodities track. That should make the difference clear to everyone.
The Old Dog would also suggest that “working” interlocking plants could be used to provide additional operator (tower man) positions when you have more operators then cab positions (engineers).
Well fellas, the plan has taken a turn as of today, and now advice is sought another step further. The “game guy”, being enthused about the inter-modal yard addition, decided to remove the game from the table! SO, now we have 8 feet to work with after the wye. Take a look at the updated trackplan: The blue lines represent rails that have been laid, or intend to be laid, and the red are still to be considered. This is where I need your help. Everyone knows what operations are included in this plan, I on behalf of the club, would like the optimum track layout in the space given for the proposed operations. I have numbered the yard tracks, and indicated possible Container (C) and Piggyback (P) tracks. I now ask the forums to offer advice for placement of tracks, turnouts etc. for a realistic, and efficient trackplan.
I liked the old plan… gave you variety… if you can i would suggest that you arrange your board coonections so that (while you may have to dead-end some routes) you can plug in either the old arrangement or the new. Then you can have the best of both worlds.
That said.
Personally, as the layout is shown, you have an awful lot of blind sidings/spurs and this (to me) is even less interesting than a puzzle… all you can do is drill cars in and haul them out. [xx(]
There’s no such thing as optimum track. There is traffic and what needs to be done with it. this can be arranged in a sickeningly boring way or with (puzzle) interest… just keep the puzzle element small and the interest element high.
If you stack in loads of parralel tracks you will have a great scene of lots of car roofs and little else.
Back at the original Q…
Can you figure out the historical development of the tracks (and therefore the signalling) here? If the bit that had the puzzle is the original lines it will have had a signalling. i would work out the tower position against this. Then someone bought the real estate that was available and put in the intemodal… this has to be connected to the existing track and either added to the original interlocking probably not directly/mechanically but certainly electrically interlocked or the old tower goes out of use and we have something new… possible miles away. You might figure out a halfway house in which a modern facility at the location or miles away hands off ops to the old tower for stuff that is entirely on its own track and under its own control. this could be interesting as you would have two towers, possible two dispatchers, having to inter-react whenever anything changed territory.
If you can arrange to plug in either module you might go all modern (remote) replacement tower controlled track development on the
In looking at the “new” yard, the Old Dog doesn’t see any provision for a “run around track” to allow a engine to get to the other end of the trains. If an engine pulls a train into the yard, how is it going to escape? For one of the yards, it might use the wye, but that would foul the branch.
On the module with the diamonds… give the tracks different age indicators… like the oldest bit gets old well weathered ties, the intermodal gets concrete ties and the puzzle/whatever area gets a lead that has just been renewed… so that it fits any time scale.
Thanks again everyone for your input! As a result of the back-and-fourth from forum input, to club planning, here is the most likely result. The game guy can still have his game, and the fluidity of operations can be achieved with minimal bottlenecks, though the “mainline” plays a part in operations, unintentionally. Please review the latest trackplan, and let me know anything else that could be changed, added, etc. Would it seem likely that an interlocking tower would be located at the 90 degree crossover where the intermodal lead track crosses the wye?
Unless you are willing to allow your switch crew to foul the commodities track while switching, you need a longer lead. If the E1 track is full, the engine would have to foul the commodities to empty it.
My guess is that the interlocking plant would be inside the wye centered on the commodities track. You have four turnouts on that line, the rod lines would probably run along that track. By contrast you have one crossing and one turnout behind it.The track to the intermodal yard would require one linje for a move signal. The turnout at the top of the wye would require three lines, one for the home signal,one for the swithc, and one for the switch lock. The commodities track includes four switches, that is eight lines for the switches and locks. On the west bound approach, you have two routes, hence two hjome and two distant signals. On the east bound approach, you have four routes, hence eight lines, for the home and distant signals. That might be rerduced by using one set of signals for the straight route and using one set for the three divengining routes.
Note also that the tracks to the intermodal yard are not square to the section edge, that might make things difficult if you want to have interchangable modules for that location.
Note that the S6 track cannot be filled without blocking access to the engine shed. In addition you might need a short spur at the fueling station to place a tank car for unloading. Also, what about the sanding tower?
I guess that it’s always best to push plenty of ideas around on paper…
Okay… it seems to me that most of the signalling suggested so far has been based on older patterns. An intermodal yard is almost always more likely to have had modern signalling with at least power operated switches. This removes all need to worry about either how rod runs are located or how long they are. I would also expect the signals themselves to be designed according to speed signalling principles and operated from a CTC or more advanced control board. This does not mean that some signals cannot indicate an absolute stop aspect (Stop and stay).
Okay again… Why have you near enough centred the arrival at the joins from the board with the wye to the top and RH boards? In my opinion this is causing a lot of the problems of clearance / obstruction of route that people are on about.
I would look at shifting the LH leg of the wye to where the latest drawing shows the red track leading to the possible industry and heading it straight into the ladder track so that the switch into the pink track is LH not RH as shown.
DO NOT take the engine facility off of S6! If any one switch fails you’ve lost your facility. RR do not do this to themselves. A route at S6 might provide an escape route. I would want to get into/out of the loco facility from both legs of the wye. (Yes this will probably mean another diamond… you might be able to achieve it with carefully located switches toe to toe - one at least might be a Y).
Back at the Y the top end of the Y wants to be as close to the top of the board as possible and I would angle it in line with the ladder as suggested. There is no reason why the switch shouldn’t be a LH, RH, or Y. Which it is will obviously swing the roads around. Coming out of the ladder onto a RH switch and
