Something that I have never been clear on. Are the Paragon 3 decoder problems limited to BLI’s steam engines or are BLI diesels affected too?
Rich
I have four Paragon3 diesels and they seem to be OK.
You might consider the P5a electric a “diesel” since it is mechanically similar. Somehow a bad batch of motors got in to these. Incidentally, about the same time Rapido was having motor issues with their RS-11 and RS-18 Alcos, of which both of mine needed motor AND decoder replacements performed by their service people.
In the case of the BLI P5a the three I have needed new motors and decoders. BLI provided the parts free of charge and I did the repair work myself.
I have two Paragon 3 GG1s that run just fine as well.
Another note, both BLI and Rapido gave me excellent repair and/or parts replacement service.
A further issue with Paragon 3 which I haven’t mentioned yet but seems to have affected certain decoder versions is the inability to program certain four-digit addresses. In four situations I have had trouble programming the road number as the DCC address. Very odd behavior.
BLI claims they have corrected it with revision H but it still persists even with new, replacement decoders from them.
Regards, Ed
Very interesting. I dont see why the transmitter board would make the engine much more sensetive to dirty track, besides maybe the fact that increases current draw, making the stock small capacitors drain faster over interuptions.
What exactly was the issues with the motors? Do they not spin? Do they draw more current? Was there a visual difference between the bad motors and the replacement motors they sent you?
Charles
High current draw that would overload the motor output circuitry on the decoder. Ones I tested would draw 1.8 amps at 10 volts, no load.
The replacement motors were identical on the outside appearance. They already had the flywheels and plug attached.
I heard about the pitfalls of opening up the Rapido Alcos so I decided to let them do the work on those so I can not comment on what their motors looked like.
I don’t mean to imply that the Rolling Thunder transmitter itself is at fault but I’m saying that somewhere in the design process of adapting the socket and related circuitry something, maybe a certain component, seems to have compromised the functionality of the decoder itself.
Trying to diagnose the PRR Streamlined K4 I spent hours, usually at the suggestion of the BLI service tech, trying to make headway at a diagnosis.
After a hard-reset everything would work perfect on address 3. Programming the road number into the decoder would eventually lead to odd and erratic behavior.
Motor direction would go haywire. Engine would stop, then restart in the opposite direction at random times. Engine would take off at 100% speed with only notching throttle to speed step 1 then there would be NO control. I had to kill layout power to get the engine to stop. BLI suspected the Digitrax command station. I reset everything (and even bought a new DCS240 just to be sure) but the problem persists.
Sometimes the motor would not respond at all but all of the related sounds and lights would work fine. Sometimes I would write an address to the decoder and on reading it back an e
This type of behavior, the inability to program certain four digit long addresses, happened once before, but I cannot immediately recall the manufacturer of the loco or the decoder. Let me use the search function to find it.
Rich
Huh, I wonder if its a digitraxx thing. Id assume its not, Ive heard similar issues with NCE and the such.
It sounds like there’s some sort of interference between the controller’s signal outputs and the decoders signal inputs. Maybe the bridge recifiers are bad. Maybe the capacitors were incorrectly wired. Maybe the decoders are lacking a frequency filter and possible outside interference is messing with the decoders.
Id like to get my hands on a few faulty decoders and try and diagnose what’s exactly going on.
Either way, it sounds like not enough time was put into R&D or QC, which led to these faulty decoders which is hurting BLI in the long run, having to return and offer repairs to engines.
Another reason I will be avoiding buying used P3 engines.
Charles
i have heard that it is the blue tooth component that is the issue
find that hard to believe but , im on my 2nd motherboard for my 2017
4014 big boy 
Hi, Charles.
This is part of the reply I got from BLI tech. while attempting to diagnose the K4:
Regarding Digitrax, I wanted you to try a different address as an experiment and it is kind of leading us to what I suspected.
I do remember the weird bug with Paragon2 that was “take the address, subtract 315 from that number, divide that by 256 - if it divides evenly then you need revision 15” - very obscure and I can assure this is not that.
That was corrected in Paragon2 and that correction carried over to Paragon3.
This is why I wanted you to test with a different address:
If you are running a Digitrax system with a dual throttle controller - sometimes a loco can act like it has a mind of its’ own. This can happen if the same address is stored in the left and right side of say, a DT402 for example - even if one of the sides does not have the address called up in the window it can suddenly start getting commands from the state of that (old/duplicate) stored address and then switch back.
For example:
You run the engine one day on the left throttle at DCC address #2000 and then you throttle down and pull the loco off the rails and shut down the system.
You never run that address again until 3 months later when you call up DCC address #2000 on the right throttle. Let’s say the left side of the throttle now reads something like DCC address #636. The engine is moving along at speedstep 40 of 128 (right knob/throttle), and then suddenly it will get the command from the left side that was there 3 months earlier of speedstep 0 - even though it’s not present in the window. Then, it gets the commands from the right side again and takes off back up to spedstep 40. I
I understand that DCC and sound are important to a lot of modelers today, and that it is a significant factor in the future of the hobby.
And I also understand that model train electronics are not cell phones or tablets, or gaming PC’s.
But I have to think too much work is being put into trying to out scoop the competition, and not enough work is going into having a solid reliable product.
Just like I feel Broadway has missed out by completely turning its back on modelers not interested in sound, or modelers who might prefer to install the decoder of their choice.
But I could be wrong…
But I know this, I look at Broadway models and while nice, the detail levels do not “wow” me. The steam is a little better than the diesels, which I still feel are out classed by a number of other brands, current and past offerings.
What kind of psycholgy accepts having to return $700 locomotives for repeated repairs but then calls $300 Bachamann locos “junk” because the decoders have less features, or bec
Lol Sheldon I’ve been intentionally holding down my desire to reply to your comments. But now that youve directly quoted me I guess I must do so now.
There are so many points Id like to address, but I feel it would be a waste of my time and yours to rehatch old discussions.
The simple fact is, I get it, there are people who dont like the complexities of DCC, and find DC perfectly suitable. And there’s obviously nothing wrong with that, I completely respect that. But just because you dislike DCC doesnt mean DCC isnt a valuable asset in part of a model.
But I have to think too much work is being put into trying to out scoop the competition, and not enough work is going into having a solid reliable product.
I think BLI values QC just as much as the next, but theyve made a blunder…just like Bachmann did when they used to use cheap white nylon as axle gears. Sh!t happens, and I respect BLI for holding their customer service and offering repairs and free replacement (parts) for their troubles.
Just like I feel Broadway has missed out by completely turning its back on modelers not interested in sound, or modelers who might prefer to install the decoder of their choice.
BLI has its own reasons to force their own decoders in their engines. Financially, it makes perfect sense for them to do so. I know it makes those who dont prefer their decoders angry for having to pay more (or simply not buy them), but honestly I commend BLI for creating their own decoders. It increases their profits in the long run, and I will always commend any manufacturer who decides to dive into different markets.
However, any manufacturer who’s trying new things will bound to have failure. BLI doesnt specialize in decoders, and so obviously theyve made a mistake. Im sure they are more than well aware of their fault. I dont think people like me or you complaining is helping anyone. Sort of like how their first model the J1e had issues w
Wow, it looks like I have way too much free time.
Apologies for the rant-like nature of the post.
I think we’re off topic now.
Anyways, BLI P3 has some issues, so either deal with it or dont buy it.
Obviously BLI is to blame for the issues, but I personally also believe anyone about to drop $900 on an engine should be doing some research on what theyre getting themselves into before purchasing.
a keep alive, or decoder/motor replacement should do the trick.
Charles
[quote user=“Trainman440”]
Lol Sheldon I’ve been intentionally holding down my desire to reply to your comments. But now that youve directly quoted me I guess I must do so now.
There are so many points Id like to address, but I feel it would be a waste of my time and yours to rehatch old discussions.
The simple fact is, I get it, there are people who dont like the complexities of DCC, and find DC perfectly suitable. And there’s obviously nothing wrong with that, I completely respect that. But just because you dislike DCC doesnt mean DCC isnt a valuable asset in part of a model.
But I have to think too much work is being put into trying to out scoop the competition, and not enough work is going into having a solid reliable product.
I think BLI values QC just as much as the next, but theyve made a blunder…just like Bachmann did when they used to use cheap white nylon as axle gears. Sh!t happens, and I respect BLI for holding their customer service and offering repairs and free replacement (parts) for their troubles.
Just like I feel Broadway has missed out by completely turning its back on modelers not interested in sound, or modelers who might prefer to install the decoder of their choice.
BLI has its own reasons to force their own decoders in their engines. Financially, it makes perfect sense for them to do so. I know it makes those who dont prefer their decoders angry for having to pay more (or simply not buy them), but honestly I commend BLI for creating their own decoders. It increases their profits in the long run, and I will always commend any manufacturer who decides to dive into different markets.
However, any manufacturer who’s trying new things will bound to have failure. BLI doesnt specialize in decoders, and so obviously theyve made a mistake. Im sure they are more than well aware of their fault. I dont think people like me or you complaining is helping anyone. Sort of li
It simply does not suit my personal needs for my layout.
Pretty much sums up the argument doesnt it?
I find DCC to be vastly useful albeit a bit outdated. DCC (and sound/smoke for that matter) is all personal preference. I respect that you like the simplicity of DC. I’ll admit at times I want to switch to just plain DC, but being first introduced to this hobby with the wonders of sound, I cant quite live without it.
I forgot to mention that yes, many will value prototype specific detail on those USRA 2-8-2s more than the quality of the details themselves. But my counter to that is, I can easily modify the headlight to be raised. Im willing to customize my locos if I find it necessary. In fact, I find BLI’s(and Bachmann’s for that matter) headlight castings to be so oversized to the point where Im seriously considering replacing them with brass castings. The molded on piping would be much harder to bring up to my standard than replacing the headlight with a bracket, and new casting. Again, that’s personal preference. Some will like one, others will like the latter.
And yes, I agree with you (and I think I have before) that I wish BLI would release DCC ready models. However, financially, they have little incentive to do so. I dont see them changing this so Ive learned to just deal with it.
Besides the decoder, their steam/electric models otherwise are fine in my opinon.
Oh yea, BLI’s diesels are garbage in terms of detail. Only recently in their F3/F7s did they finally seem to bother with prototype specific detail.
I buy used as I enjoy repairing models so I can 1. learn the innerworkings of each model by each brand 2. a sucessful restoration always gives me a good feeling, seeing a model running that you know youve put a few hours of work into and 3. saves money.
I think if you own a model, (just like owning a house) you should have the ability to disassemble/repair said model incase someth
[quote user=“Trainman440”]
It simply does not suit my personal needs for my layout.
Pretty much sums up the argument doesnt it?
I find DCC to be vastly useful albeit a bit outdated. DCC (and sound/smoke for that matter) is all personal preference. I respect that you like the simplicity of DC. I’ll admit at times I want to switch to just plain DC, but being first introduced to this hobby with the wonders of sound, I cant quite live without it.
I forgot to mention that yes, many will value prototype specific detail on those USRA 2-8-2s more than the quality of the details themselves. But my counter to that is, I can easily modify the headlight to be raised. Im willing to customize my locos if I find it necessary. In fact, I find BLI’s(and Bachmann’s for that matter) headlight castings to be so oversized to the point where Im seriously considering replacing them with brass castings. The molded on piping would be much harder to bring up to my standard than replacing the headlight with a bracket, and new casting. Again, that’s personal preference. Some will like one, others will like the latter.
And yes, I agree with you (and I think I have before) that I wish BLI would release DCC ready models. However, financially, they have little incentive to do so. I dont see them changing this so Ive learned to just deal with it.
Besides the decoder, their steam/electric models otherwise are fine in my opinon.
Oh yea, BLI’s diesels are garbage in terms of detail. Only recently in their F3/F7s did they finally seem to bother with prototype specific detail.
I buy used as I enjoy repairing models so I can 1. learn the innerworkings of each model by each brand 2. a sucessful restoration always gives me a good feeling, seeing a model running that you know youve put a few hours of work into and 3. saves money.
I think if you own a model, (just like owning a house) you should have the ability t
Sheldon, that is probably your best description yet of your Aristo Craft Train Engineer operating system. Once your new layout is completed, you ought to take some videos of the layout in operation. I am ready to switch from DCC to ACTE!
Rich
This thread reminds me of why I started the Liberating Purge thread.
Hunting down problems to spend my time fiddling with them, with inconsistent success, is no longer an enjoyable part of the hobby. No matter how “perfect” said equipment is for my “needs”.
Sell or trash the worrisome albatross. Change my needs. Start having fun again.
Thank you Rich. It is hard to describe how it all works. It is not simple to build, it is simple to use.
One of the secrets is the pushbuttons rather than toggle switches, which allow turnouts and cab assignments to be controlled from multiple locations and the lighted buttons act as indicators rather than having separate lights.
While it does consist of “standard” circuits, how they interconnect is unique to each track plan.
And while it can support very complex prototype signaling, I choose to use a “simplified” signal system that looks very prototypical, but skips over some signal indications that are not really helpful in a model setting, even on a layout my size.
This also makes it easier for operators who my not be overly knowledgeable of the prototype.
Nearly all my signals are control points, or absolute signals.
I made my comments about BLI not just to pick on them, but to suggest that they could be even better, which this hobby needs.
Sheldon
It would be curious to see the rsults of the ‘psper test’ - slipping s sheet of paper under one side of the loco and tender at a time to verify it’s actually picking up power from everywhere it should. No way should a large loco need a keep alive device. My T1’s don’t, and they were made by BLI (under the PCM name since they have ESU decoders). But one of them did have a poorly inserted wire in one of the wiring sockets, causing that pin to push out the back of the connector instead of seat over the pin on the PCB. As a result, in was picking up from both sides of the loco but only one side of the tender.
Might be a good idea to check the tender wiring to make sure all the conenctions are actually connected - this was pretty easy to spot as you could see the metal crimped on socket sticking above the palstic of the connector shell.
At least they are using a 3 wire system like ESU and Lenz, so there is some control over it and it doesn’t just run forever, and can be bypassed in programming. But really - a 2-10-4 with pickups in both the loco and the tender - with a pair of 6 or 8 wheel trucks on the tender - should NEVER EVER need a keep alive device - if the pickups are all working and it stall, you need to fix your track. If the track is good and it stall, the pickup system needs a lot of help. The pickup area on a beast like that is bigger than even a #8 turnout frog, so even unpowered frogs should give it no problem.
–Randy
I took a different path.
In the 80’s, I almost became a rivet counter. I stopped having fun, so I carefully examined my goals and interests in the hobby. Keep in mind the beginnings of sound and command control were already happening, so those factors were considered.
And they were reconsidered when DCC came along.
But the availability of new products and new technologies has not changed my goals in this hobby.
I carefully considered DCC, I carefully considered onboard sound, I examined how high end RTR might impact my modeling. I switched from hand layed track to commercial track when track improved.
But I did not run out willy nilly and buy DCC or a fleet of expensive locos with DCC and sound.
I was satisfied with my modeling choices before these products, I am still satisfied with my modeling choices.
After careful consideration, I have embraced some changes, and rejected others.
So I have never had to purge anything, my approach to the hobby has only changed slightly as a result of better or different products.
I have embraced higher quality RTR, but by quality I mean suitable operational and appearance, not necessarily requiring higher detail than I was happy with before.
So yes, in many ways I see Broadway as past the point of diminishing returns, especially since they will not sell me a DC locomotive.
For me signaling and CTC is more important, by a long shot, than sound or command control.
Sheldon
And Im the guy who buys all your junk! 
I enjoy troubleshooting engines, even if its a problem I cant fix (such as a cracked gear with no replacements). It helps me understand the engineering and design behind each model, and (somewhat) helps me further my abilities in diagnosing and repair.
I am in no means an expert, but I enjoy seeing all the various ways manufacturers have managed to cram so much technology in such a small model.
Charles