I will defer to Dave’s information for the current rules, which are not available to me. However, I do have an older rulebook that covers signal aspects, and it addresses the same issues we are discussing here, and it concurs with Dave’s information.
Flashing yellow restricts your speed up to the next signal. The rule says to reduce to a certain definition of reduced or restricted speed, and then says to approach the next signal at that speed or to not pass that signal at more than the restricted speed. So the rules about flashing yellow specifically stay in effect up to the next signal. In this wreck, the next signal was solid yellow.
The meaning of solid yellow in my rulebook is:
Proceed prepared to stop at next signal. Train exceeding 30 miles per hour must immediately reduce to that speed.
Now it might be easy to assume that this would apply up to the next signal, but it does not say that. If you do assume it app
I’ve also thought yellow meant to be ready to stop at the next signal, assuming it’s a red signal, but that if the signal became a less restrictive indication, then you coudl adjust to the higher speed immediately, assuming no slow orders are in effect for an area. This is at least, how I thought it was supposed to be. So if the next signal becomes green, then I’d think you would be able to accelerate once again, as soon as that signal cleared.
Normally, a green signal simply shouldn’t revert to red. If you’re given track to go on by the dispatcher, you should have it up to a certain point, and it shouldn’t be possible for anything to be signalled to come the other way, or to cross over a track, without you at least having a yellow before, and a red one at the end (and many railroads having flashing yellow before solid yellow). If you’re following a train, and it clears a signal, it should allow the ones behind it to advance a step. The train shouldn’t be able to move backward and suddenly mess your signal.
Basically, the only reason a signal could go from green to red is if something bad has happened, or at least somebody getting track that they shouldn’t, and that can happen anywhere, not just after getting yellow. Also, as different railroads have different rules, I’m not sure what the rule was on teh line where the crash happened, as for when you can accelerate again.
Bottom line. First signal was advance approach. Second signal was approach. Third signal would have been at stop.
Advance approach indication says that the train should proceed prepared to stop at the second signal Freight trains have to reduce immediately to 40 mph. Passenger trains must reduce speed to pass the next signal at 40 mph.
Approach indication says that the train must proceed prepared to stop before passing the next signal. Freight trains must immediately reduce speed to 30 mph and passenger trains exceeding 45 mph must reduce speed to not exceed 45 mph.
The switch was lined against Metrolink’s movements, the dispatcher had lined an opposing movement against the Metrolink and an opposing train was in the block beyond the signal. Any one of those conditions would have caused the signal at the end of the siding to display stop.
The advance approach and the approach signals were entirely proper and correct for the situation immediately prior to the accident.
There are only two possibilities for the signal at the end of the siding. Either the signal displayed stop or it displayed something other than stop. Since there are multiple conditions that would have caused it to display a stop indication, if it displayed something other than stop that would require a serious failure on the part of the signal system. I have not read of the NTSB finding any defective part or operation of the signal system. There has been no physical evidence presented that the signal displayed anything other than stop. The only criticism I have read of the signal system is that the bulb red signal was dim, but it was still functioning. So either there was some unspecified failure which no one has been able to replicate in a signal system that by all accounts operated properly prior to the accident, passed all the post accident testing and has by all accounts operated cor
ok guys what im about to say is gospol anywhere in the united states. If you have a green proceed take off or keep going at track speed. a yellow ( approach) means proceed to next signal prepared to stop. train or engine exceeding 30 mph ( my road medium speed) must at once reduce to that speed. simple get your train down to 30 mph or less and prepared to stop at next signal. Now this signal is only telling you of track condition. next block is occupied, or the dispatcher has not lined you up. that is what this signal means now if you can see the next signal even at a 1/2 mile away and it is green get going. track speed. most of the guys here wont but you can as the restriction is gone. now a approach restricted ( flashing yellow and there is others) means proceed by next signal not exceeding restricted speed ( not exceeding 15 mph may be 20 on other roads) this is a signal that means what it says if the next signal is green ( not likley ) you still do restricted speed til the head end goes past this signal. if your going faster than 15 mph and the fra man is there with radar gun in hand you will be told to stop your train and you will be releaved. ( or train master and road forman also) .after passing signal do as indication says do… Now there is signals i have no idea what they mean nor care. ( sorry csx guys but medium clear , green over yellow flashing to the 3rd power of pie ) yea right… thats why i like the old southern signal green means go a yellow means slow down and a red is stop. if you put a number plate on it then its restricting. thats it.
I hope this helps in understanding that in most cases the signal is conveying track conditions but in ctc the dispatcher may not have you line up. but in this case the man at the throttle was wrong, and why did this happen many times you go by the signal and its clear you never meet anyone here but this timeyou had a yellow but in past you always had a green you text message someone forget abou
I think thats a little unfair though, the previous worst accident, the Burbank collision had nothing to do with anything Metrolink directly did, but everything to do with a deranged nutjob out to create mayhem, add in the deaths from auto/train collisions, most due to people either trying to beat the train or ignoring the “Do Not Stop On The Tracks” warnings, and the pedestrian/train deaths, (darn all that noise I cant hear my Ipod on my earplugs) and the numbers attributable directly to Metrolink actions are actually much lower. Accidents happen, but fault is not always where the media lays it.
Except on roads covered by GCOR (most of the western US) where the rules read just like I outlined in my previous post. On those roads passenger trains have a higher speed (40 advance approach, 45 approach) and Metrolink is a passenger train. You are correct for freight trains.
ok guys what im about to say is gospol anywhere in the united states. If you have a green proceed take off or keep going at track speed. a yellow ( approach) means proceed to next signal prepared to stop. train or engine exceeding 30 mph ( my road medium speed) must at once reduce to that speed. simple get your train down to 30 mph or less and prepared to stop at next signal. Now this signal is only telling you of track condition. next block is occupied, or the dispatcher has not lined you up. that is what this signal means now if you can see the next signal even at a 1/2 mile away and it is green get going. track speed. most of the guys here wont but you can as the restriction is gone. now a approach restricted ( flashing yellow and there is others) means proceed by next signal not exceeding restricted speed ( not exceeding 15 mph may be 20 on other roads) this is a signal that means what it says if the next signal is green ( not likley ) you still do restricted speed til the head end goes past this signal. if your going faster than 15 mph and the fra man is there with radar gun in hand you will be told to stop your train and you will be releaved. ( or train master and road forman also) .after passing signal do as indication says do… Now there is signals i have no idea what they mean nor care. ( sorry csx guys but medium clear , green over yellow flashing to the 3rd power of pie ) yea right… thats why i like the old southern signal green means go a yellow means slow down and a red is stop. if you put a number plate on it then its restricting. thats it.
I hope this helps in understanding that in most cases the signal is conveying track conditions but in ctc the dispatcher may not have you line up. but in this case the man at the throttle was wrong, and why did this happen many times you go by the signal and its clear you never meet anyone here but this timeyou had a yellow but in past you always had a green you text message someone
This is what is frustrating about these threads, so many people quote old rules, the wrong rules, misunderstand rules and assume things that it gets wadded completely up.
There is NO reason under the rules in effect at the time the train should have been operating at restricted speed. NONE of the signal indications required operating at restricted speed.&nbs
However, a good dispatcher will (when time permits) inform all trains involved of a planned meet. The reason: to make sure everyone is on the same ‘page’. Hearing about meets via the radio also helps other engineers in the vicinity be aware of what is going on ahead of them. The CN dispatchers do this quite frequently (at least in Wisconsin).
I am curious about this point. In this case of this collision, do we know whether the engineer had been verbally informed that he was going to meet the U.P. train at the final signal? If he had been so informed, and if the final signal were green, would you expect the engineer to stop for the green signal or not pass it until contacting the dispatcher for an explanation? Would that be a typical response?
Is there anything in the rules that would require an engineer to disregard a signal if it conflicts with some a verbal agreement or understanding? I vaguely recall hearing about rules controlling or limiting the use of verbal conversation to control train movements which are being controlled by signals.
The tapes, pulled about 1 minute after the collision, no doubt, revealed all conversations, and relevant transcripts will appear in the NTSB report when released.
Whatever the dispatcher tells an engineman about an impending meet can only be regarded by
Thanks for that information about the verbal instructions. With regard to the ongoing discussion, my only objective over the last couple pages was just to pin down one single point. That is whether or not the engineer would be completely vindicated from blame for the crash if the last signal were green. Now, finally, based your information, along with information given by others in several of the last posts, I conclude that the answer to the question is yes. However, I see no way he could be vindicated if the final signal were red.
That is very interesting. I certainly do not doubt you, but I cannot imagine why a railroad would not want to keep everyone equipped with as much information as possible regarding all activities on a segment of railroad. By knowing in advance of a meet, an engineer might want to operate differently.
I know what you mean about the large territories–sometimes on the radio it sounds like the poor dispatchers cannot catch their breath.
Zardoz, you’ve been around longer than that! You know how risk-adverse management thinks: “If you make it a practice to tell enginemen to expect a meet, then they’ll come to rely on you to tell them that instead of paying attention to the signals and track conditions ahead.” Weren’t you the guy on another thread telling people you were depressed about the dumbing down of railroading? [:-,]
Railway man If I gave you a manditory directive ( for the layman it means tell you) not to pass a signal until you here from me and its a clear signal and you go passed it you will get pulled out of service and have time off. it dont matter if your in ctc or abs. the verbal from the dispatcher will superceed the signal. I run on both ctc and abs and it dont matter if they tell you to stop short of that signal and dont take it. that is what they mean.
Wabash: I’ve never worked on a non-GCOR railway in the operating department, only in other departments, so if you work under some other rule book, I have no idea what they say or don’t say.
On a GCOR railway, I agree with you that a dispatcher can instruct a train not to take a signal in CTC territory - and I have done that.
In ABS non-directional (not 9.13/9.14) territory on a GCOR railway, signals do not provide authority. The Track Warrant, Track Permit, Yard Limits, DTC, or OCR provides authority. As a dispatcher if I want to stop a train in ABS territory I take back the warrant or DTC I have already given, if the engineman advises me he can safely stop short of the point where I want to cut the authority off. I do not tell him to “not take the signal” in ABS territory, and in the dispatcher instructions I have written I’ve listed that as a do-not-do.
The only time I care about signal indications in ABS territory, is if it’s an absolute signal displaying red, and the train has a valid authority beyond it and there are no conflicting movements. Then I talk him past on Rule 9.12.1. Otherwise the signal indications are meaningless to me as a dispatcher, and I can’t see them anyway. If it’s a numberplated signal and it displays red, it’s a stop-and-proceed, and that’s the engineman’s to deal with, not mine. I do care if there are ABS that are red with no conflicting move present, as that can indicate there’s a broken rail, a washout, or who knows what, and I might decide to call the roadmaster to inspect the track before I let the train proceed, depending upon what has been out there previously – a red light left behind a coal or grain train? Possibly a broken rail. Or in a rainstorm? Possibly a washout. But in some territories we just have dirty ballast and lots of red signals every time it gets humid. In that case it slows down trains and means crews hog out.
Yes, I’ve been around for quite a while. Although I still cannot seem to be able to think the same way someone in Management thinks. Perhaps I’ve been a follower of Dilbert for too long.
However, even if the reasoning you suggest is the basis for the not sharing of information, it would seem that the results would be no worse than if the dispatcher only occasionally was able (time issues again) to let the trains involved know what is going on. If an engineer doesn’t EVER know about any upcoming meets or delays, he will operate as though he is the only train out there, which is the same way he’d operate if the dispatcher was unable on occasion to inform him about a potential meet.
But I would think that the savings in fuel and brake shoes would justify keeping engineers informed about planned delays.
Sometimes it is helpful when the dispatcher tells you about a meet. Even with two tracks in CTC we still get stopped to meet someone crossing over or running around us. At some Control Points, if you don’t have advance warning from the dispatcher, your first signal indication that your are going to be held is already too late to stop without blocking crossings.
When telling us of a meet, they will say, “meeting one (or whatever number) or holding you for (x number of trains to go around you.” That’s not the same as a dispatcher saying, “Don’t take the signal at CP---- without talking to me again.” One is informational and subject to change without further comment, the other is an order account of something unusual happening. (The times I have been told not to take a signal was because the signal department was working/testing at a control point and had local control of it. At that point, the dispatcher didn’t have control of the signal until the signal dept released it back.)
There are times when you have to be careful that you don’t read too much into the information your given. Between Fremont and Omaha there is still a stretch of double track, current of traffic ABS. The first governing signal for eastward trains is at the control point near Pacific Street. East of this it is CTC, two main tracks. The control point is just behind a curve with trees that obscure the view of the signal. Even in winter with the leaves gone the signal can’t be seen until you come around the curve. If you don’t have your train prepared to stop when you are wrong mained (against the current of traffic) by the time you see the signal, it is too late. We have had engineers go by this signal. I have had a dispatcher give me the impression that he was going to take us, without actually saying so. I still was prepared to stop and a good
Its a balancing act. Engineers may act on information as if it is authority. The dispatcher tealls the train they will be there for 2 trains. Two trains go by, but the third train caught up to the first two and the dispatcher decides to bring it on also. the crew in the siding sees two trains go by and without waiting to get authority depart the station and run into the the oncoming 3rd train.
Providing information can reduce calls to the dispatcher, since the trains know what is going on, they don’t ask. The downside is if the situation is fluid, you could tell the trains one thing and 20 minutes later do something completely different.
Railway man you seem to be back tracking here a bit. Now let me get this right, 1 min after the crash they was pulling the tapes. so the railroad set this crash up? heck the last signal was 1 mile from the station and the crash site was 1/2 mile from the signal anyways You cant even get a trainmaster out from behind his desk in a minute. now if your talking about the radio tapes in the dispatchers office was the nstb standing there? they ussually pull their own tapes so nobody can claim things was tampered with. then you changed your mind about them being able to tell you not to take a signal in that they can make you stop, after you said that the signal superseed anything the dispatcher says. I do agree that the dispatcher can not tell you the signal indication, the only thing they can say is you should have a signal or come looking for a signal or even you can proceed on signal indication. all only tell you that they have requested the signal for your movement.
I am in agreement with some on here that people are grasping at things thinking that this man could not have been texting and missed a signal that killed so many. in that he cant make that big of a mistake. and looking for loop holes in the rules that might save his reputation, trust me and other railroaders on here in saying that the rules are straight forward air tight very few cracks to slip thru. most of us have been fired over some of these rules in our time on the railroad, and most times we cant win. just do your time and come back to work.