Has anyone else had a problem with taking pictures? I was confronted by an employee today for taking pictures in Dover. I didn’t know that it was illegal, especially from the platform which is a public place. Here’s the full story:
So after my hockey game, which we lost, we headed out to Dover. My mom didn’t want to stand in the cold, so I went out on the platform alone. When I got up there, I began to set up the tripod and the video camera. I stood there for ten minutes waiting for something to come. In the yard, just east of the station, there were only two trains. One was an ALP-46 with about six multilevels. The other was some train, facing the wrong direction with a Comet V cab car on the west end. I kept an eye and an ear out, waiting for something to happen. When I looked towards the yard again, the ditch lights and headlight on the Comet V were on, so I knew that it would pull into the station, then head east to NY Penn.
Suddenly, a woman walks up to me and asks if I have a permit to photograph the trains. I told her that I didn’t and that I didn’t know that I needed one. She then told me that she works for NJ Transit and that it was illegal to photograph trains without permission. She said that although the platform is a public place, that the yard was private property. I asked her if I could point my camera away from the yard. She said no, but if I got a permit, then I could go anywhere to take pictures. She then went on about how she could call the police and have them deal with me. So I packed up and left ASAP.
It’s one thing if I were asked to stop, but she seemed kind of annoyed. I kept cool, cooperated with her and did what I was asked before she could get angryer.
I didn’t know that it was illegal for a 14 year old kid to take some pictures… Not my fault.
You chose the wise path. I don’t fan on NJT so don’t know the current status of the whole permit thing, but I recall it being an issue a while back as well.
Tree66, since you just posted, I remember from back in the day, a railroad, possibly NJT, tried that stunt of making it illegal to take pictures of trains, at least without a permit. A judge ruled it unconstitutional. In other words, no permit requirements at the time anyhow. I wasn’t aware that anything had happened since then, or that any railroad has successfully required permits from that point on.
That’d be great, but nobody’s gonna reveal to the railfan public about how to get permits for that kind of stuff. Sucks, too, because quite a few are rather mean about the whole thing, like the lady the TC was confronted by.
I never knew of it being “illegal” or needing a permit or anything. But I just found a copy of an official letter stating that a permit is NOT needed for photographing trains Here’s the link:
This is a link to a copy of a letter sent out by NJT’s then Executive Director, George Warrington on December 30, 2005 clearly allowing non commercial, hobby oreinted photography on NJT publicly accessed property. I have my own personal copy which I carry on NJT property at all times. It is a form letter which had been sent out to many at that time and therefore I encourage you to print it out and keep with you when and if you go to take pictures again on NJT property. Note: it does not give you license to do anything that would intrude on the operations or patrons of NJT or its employees, it does not allow you to go off station platforms onto tracks, it does not allow you to do anything unsafe or which would put anyone else into an unsafe position. It doesn’t state this, but you should know: if anyone, railroad employee in train or station service, NJT policeman, or any other officer of the law, do not accept this letter as proof of permission, do not argue or act angry or make a scene of any kind; it will only work against you… Simply pack up and leave. You may, however, want to write a letter of complaint to NJT’s Executive office copied to the NJT police department along with a copy of the above linked letter.
By the way, TRAINS Magazine has dealt with this matter several times so you might want to check back over the last three years for stories, instructions, and legal advice that has been given there.
Here’s a link to a discussion on the topic, including a letter one person received from NJT.
I just searched the NJT website for “photography” and got nothing about permits.
Just a thought - a letter to NJT about the incident, as well as citing the date of the decision not to require permits, might get a letter back that you can wave a copy of in the face of anyone who challenges you. Dated and signed fairly recently, and on NJT stationery, it will be hard to refute. Be sure to use a copy - some people like to tear things up…
You handled yourself very well. You left when you were told to leave. One possibility why you were hassled is that you set up a tripod on the platform, and the lady, who may or may not have been a New Jersey Transit employee, might have thought the tripod would interfere with passengers trying to board the train.
I agree with the others; your parents should bring this incident to the attention of New Jersey Transit on your behalf especially since their policy not to require permits for photographing trains from their station platforms has been in force for several years.
I deliberately positioned myself and my camera at the end of the platform, so as to not get in anyone’s way and to not attract attention to myself.
Also, I’m going to contact NJT today to report this incident, and to request a copy of the photo policy. That way, if I ever get questioned again, I’ll show them the policy, and they should leave me alone. If they still say that railfanning is illegal, I’ll just say “Have you ever heard of Rochelle, Illinois?”
As others have said you have done everything right so far. Being mildly familiar with Dover, I cannot place who this woman is you have talked about. However, Dover station (excluding loading platforms) is owned (with ticket office operated) by the Town of Dover and they may feel differently than NJT; they do have women ticket agents. Setting up tripods, etc., could be the problem, at least to the point of being seen. Therein may be a point that some can, and will, pick apart given the chance, especially when there is a bee in their bonnet. But, explain to NJT management just like you explained in your first posting here. And by all means let us all know the response. Good luck.
Good luck with everything, and if NJT tells you it’s illegal, feel free to ask for some sort of proof(such as a copy of the law/ordinance). If it truly is illegal, they should have no problem backing up their statement.
Yes “illegal” caught my eye in the original post. Has a city, county or the state government actually passed a law saying you can’t photograph trains in certain places?? I doubt it. NJT might have a rule about requiring permission, but if the platform is public property I don’t see how they can enforce it.
It is just as well he didn’t ask for ID. As a kid he would have been considered threatening. He handled the situation the way more adults should when faced with the same circumstances: politely leave then contact the higher ups about the incident.
Methinks it might have depended on the delivery. Assuming that she wasn’t wearing it, simply saying “ID?” as I went about my business might tend to disarm her, even frazzle her a bit. Especially if her ID was in her purse back at the office. I’ll agree that confronting and demanding wouldn’t have gone well, though.
Below is copy of email I sent to both Customer Service and Executive Director of NJT:
"On Monday, December 29 a young lad reported being told that he could not take pictures of NJT at Dover by an unidentified woman claiming to be an NJT employee. Both were polite and he left without a picture. Another incident during the same time period elsewhere on NJT saw another youngster attempting to take a picture. In this incident and train conductor left his train and berated the kid and sent him off also without a picture. These are two mild confrontations that have occurred. Others have been more antagonistic by NJT employees, police officers, other police agencies, and, yes, even, the railfan photographers. On December 30, 2005 then Director Warrington sent out a letter to railfans (and has been posted on several web sites) explaining that photographs and videos may be done by hobby railfans on NJT property and of NJT property as long as it is done safely
A little history. Well before Sept 11 New Jersey Transit required a permit to photograph trains from its station platforms, and such permits gave the holders permission to photograph trains from specified station platforms, on certain dates, and at certain times. If I am not mistaken the applicant had to appear in person at New Jersey Transit’s headquarters in Newark, NJ to request the photography permit.
In 2005 New Jersey Transit put the permit issue out for comment, and it received a lot of negative comments. Among the comments were several from the law firms representing news photographer and tv camera operators organizations who collectively opposed the photography permit requirements in a letter to the late George Warrington; one of the law firms in this effort was Covington and Burling of which the late W. Graham Claytor Jr. was a partner, and I imagine the name, Graham Claytor was not lost on Mr. Warrington since the late Graham Claytor was George Warrington’s predecessor as the President of Amtrak.
At the end of 2005 NJ Transit Executive Director, George Warrington, sent out a letter to those who commented on New Jersey Transit’s proposed photography policy to tell us permits would no longer be required to photograph trains from the platforms of New Jersey Transit’s stations.
By now, all officials, New Jersy Transit employees, and New Jersey Transit police officers should have been aware of New Jersey Transit’s photography policy so as long as photographers are behaving properly they should be left alone. Apparently word hadn’t reached that employee, even after all these years…