Said it before, Texas has money. State would not pay. 16 county regional group in North Texas found the money. $3.5 million is nothing here.
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Thats pretty expensive and you have to pay for people to staff it. Not sure I would go along with taxes being used for that even though it is currently fashionable in the media to propose that and point fingers vs a calm and rational examination of the issue. External to the home warning sirens are far more useless than Amtrak. All the owners of that camp had to do was purchase a NWS certified weather alert system on Amazon for say maybe $30-40. Same for the homeowners that get hit by Tornados in the middle of the night and say they never heard the warning siren. You can’t sleep through an in home warning system unless your both deaf and blind. Just amazed Texas does not incentivize them or promote them.
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This dodges the issue that a regional Texas authority (for the region in Texas most served by the train) thought enough first to assure a six-month subsidy continuation, then for a full subsequent year (over the term of the FIFA demand).
The regional agency says it will try to get the amount of funding back from the state. I don’t think they should do so. The 2013 A&M study noted that the ~18M “ROÍ” is largely in the regional area, not more state-wide.
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The once a day Heartland Flyer takes 4 hrs. 2 min to run from Fort Worth to Oklahoma City. According to Google maps, the estimated driving time is 3 hrs. 11 min. I am hard pressed to believe that a once a day, relatively lightly patronized train, that requires an average subsidy of $92.04 per passenger, has a significant impact on the North Texas economy. This is a case of throwing good money after bad.
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Please explain. [quote=“PJS1, post:5, topic:415045”]
This is a case of throwing good money after bad.
[/quote]
I understand “good money” is the, in your opinion, wasted money on the subsidy for RR travel. What was the “after bad”? Where was bad money spent? Or was that the use of a common phrase to make YOUR point?
I flagged your first post. Come on, why inject the flood tragedy into your opinion about RR matters? That is sad. We all have a right to opinions but, please. It has been known of this threat, 1984 same flooding there but not as bad. Thus causing concern. The citizens of the flood area have REJECTED steps to avoid/warn of pending threats. Probably not now. endmrw0711251420
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The “bad money” is the $7.4 million state and federal taxpayer dollars that were required in FY24 to support a once a day train between Fort Worth and Oklahoma City. The average subsidy was $92.04 per passenger, which is a burden on the taxpayers. For the three years ended FY24 the Flyer cost state and federal taxpayers $21.1 million, which was an average subsidy per passenger of $97.73.
Taxpayer dollars should be spent on projects ranked ordered by expected value, i.e. highest to lowest values. A better flood warning system would produce a higher expected value than the money required to support the Heartland Flyer. But there are other potential spends that could generate an even higher expected value. In Texas they would include expanded Medicaid coverage, more affordable housing, fixing the state’s deteriorating roadways, shoring up the states stressed electric grid, improving enforcement of traffic laws, etc.
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Natural Disasters are ALWAYS political with copious finger pointing. Once the dead are found and buried - what if any real actions will be taken?
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Protection from and/or warning of the consequences of natural disasters is a proper function of governmentd federal and local. Shibboleths about personal responsibility are a rather passive aggressive stance of blaming the victims. Would installation of warning sirens be so expensive ?
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I go through this very same argument with people that do not want to pay to maintain a pool in my HOA. They will all happily take the economic benefit of a higher sale price on their home though. Put it in their pocket and that is that. They scream continuously at the costs of supporting the pool though.
So while I agree that the Heartland Flyer costs money and we are probably better off without it. I think I can see a little bit of the other side of the argument as well that Oklahoma is a poor state and in part it is poor as it was the final destination of the trail of tears. Folks are happy to drive up and enjoy the Casinos up there but rarely connect the dots as to why there are Casinos up there.
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They had warning sirens in place, they were not working because the community did not want to pay for maintenence. Actually a vague common thread between the Heartland Flyer subsidy and the subsidy for warning sirens. The warning sirens were kind of stupid in design from what I read. They were based on the height of the river water soooo, rather useless in my view with a flash flood. They paid for that system with tax money though and were happy with it…until they were not.
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CH2, “proper function of government.” AGREE.
And they did! I’m shocked that the Camp Director didn’t buy a $200 alert radio. People were warned by the government. NOAA
While this is not a RR discussion I have found out important information (maybe).
LATER, the investigation will show who should be ashamed.
For me, to keep this RR, I apologize to PJS1. Yes $7.4m could be considered “bad money spent”.
However, Please, the mention of better spending to for stall a disaster, while bodies have yet to be found, surely falls under the forum rules. Inapproiate. IMHO
As far as inapproiate, I have heard some posters mention “if your so sensitive, you need to grow up”. I for one, sure hope Firecrown doesn’t see it that way. regards to all mike endmrw0711251846
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In dealing with flash flood damage - railroads nearly always get seriously damaged in flash floods - they always attempt to follow the water level grade wherever they are operating. That nearness to the water is a big detriment when flash floods happen.
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I am always amazed at how RR’s got first built. No USGS maps for topo info. Surveyors had no trouble. Follow the rivers. Not that simple but a good way to work out a route.
Too, there is a section of BNSF into Memphis that has a huge build up for ROW. It goes through Delta flatland in Eastern Arkansas. They prepared for floods. There/Then. On that same subdivision, totally different topography, at the Black River they recently lost a bridge.
One does what you can and sometimes, that just ain’t enough. endmrw0711251911
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Where I live, the former interurban right of way parallels the former Cotton Belt line. The Interurban line crosses a river about 20 feet lower. Clearly built to cheaper standards, IMHO.
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Interesting reaction for a state so wealthy.
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Whoa, where did SSW parallel? Boy, could I tell you about cheaper standards.
They started out as 3’ gauge. Cost. Of course they eventually had to change and did so in 24 hrs, October 18, 1886, the Northern division. Crossties cost $0.27 each then. Leading up to the event any crosstie replacement was done with longer crossties installed, to be ready for that one day. The longer crosstie had a spike already in place for the standard gauge. endmrw0711252046
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My bad it was Houston and Texas Central. The Texas Electric Interurban largely parallels H&TC which is just to the East of the Expressway that carries it’s name. Highway 75 or “Central Expressway”. Cotton Belt is the to be Dallas DART Silver line + Tex Rail if you want to view it on a DART map.
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Oklahoma City voted 71% for a 1% sales tax to build an arena for the Thunder that will be occupied for 25 years. The taxpayers will be picking up $850 million, the team owners $50 million of the construction costs. Apparently, Oklahoma will fund important things like sports arenas, not frills like Amtrak.
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Chuck, someone has asked me about a RR that is “the ultimate” is ROW along a river. I will start a tread about it. regards mike 0712251641
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Texas is not as wealthy as some assume.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2023 the median household income in Texas was $76,292 compared to $78,538 for the U.S. Per capita income for the preceding 12 months was $39,446 compared to $43,289 for the nation. The poverty rate was 13.7% for Texas compared to 11.1% for the nation. These statistics are just the starting point. A deeper dive would show significant differences of wealth between the major regions of the state, as well as within regions, and cost of living indicators. West Texas, as an example, is as different from Central Texas as day is to night.
There are, to be sure, many wealthy people in Texas. But there are also a lot of poor people. Approximately 17 to 20 percent of Texans do not have health insurance. When this gap is closed, along with the shortage of affordable housing, etc., etc. using taxpayer money to subsidize the Heartland Flyer might be appropriate.
Numbers provide an out of focus picture. Grinding the lens requires spending time on the ground. And for Texas, it means a lot of time. It is a large, diverse state.
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