Eastbound high wide movement on the NS Pittsburgh line today with what appears to be an Ingot mold of some sort on the first flat, which i already knew, i thought those things were outdated with continious casting… but does anyone here have any idea what the other 3 revenue cars are carrying and going?
Thanks, Tom
Tom, The other three could very well be linkage & gear boxes for a rolling mill stand. I’ve seen these before and they look just like them. Patrick
Just because there is Continous Casting does not mean all customers want the MILLS to use it. Alot of Steel produced for the Military is small batch very high grade stuff and requires a rolling mill afterwards to get the armor property right. Think the stuff in an Aircraft Carrier or on a Ship. That stuff is differant than what a Caster makes why the Military wants a secial hardness that only rolling it back and forth creates.
The former Lukens Steel Co. in Coatesville, PA - about 40 miles west of Phila., which was acquired early 1990s by Bethlehem Steel Co., which then became ISG and is now yet another Arcelor-Mittal plant, I believe - used to have the marketing motto of, ‘‘The specialist in plate steels’’. A lot of their product was rolled and went into ship armor as Ed says, plus they seemed to have a big business in forged or pressed ‘heads’ for tanks of various kinds, such as pressurized gases, nuclear reactors, and the like - the ‘West Yard’ there was many acres that was just full of the ‘dies’ for those. Last I heard a few years ago, it was still an ingot-cast plant, though that could have changed by now.
Also, the Carpenter Technologies steel mill in Reading, PA was also an ingot caster, last I knew. That’s a specialty steel plant that makes steels in small and custom batches such as stainless for medical instruments, special alloys, etc.
Ed’s also right in that the rolling process aligns the steel molecules to give it different/ stronger properties in that direction, and also ‘works’ it to some degree which makes it denser and tougher. A metallurgist or textbook could tell you more.
But I’m wondering how come this is a High-Wide move in the first place. None of the loads looks to be over-height compared to the bulkhead flat’s ends; and the only thing that seems to be over-width is the ingot mold itself, and that seems to be hanging over the visible side of the bulkhead flat car by only 6’’ or so. I’m wondering why it wasn’t turned sideways the other way, and even then rotated 90 degrees so that the narrow side was down if needed, or stood on end, etc. I’m sure there are ‘tie-down’ challanges with any of those as well, but those should not be too difficult to overcome. Maybe it would have still been oversize - or maybe NS got lucky with an unsophisticated shipper that tendered a ‘premium-rate’ load that didn’t really have to be that way ?
Just because it says high and wide dose not mean its high in th etime table the 3 tier auto racks are considered high and is required a high and wide file for movement but we dont do that . but then you say that the NS is ripping off a shipper because it dont look high and wide to you. Do you think the ns would stay in buisness stealing like that? look close there is steel sheets below the other stuff on the car, those steel sheets are the wide part of the load, anything sticking over the edge is considered wide, no these usually wont cause a problem hitting anything there is places it will get close but this is for warning other employees that even though you may not see a combine sticking over the edge there is something sticking over the edge and dont get c
Also the lower you can get a load the more STABLE IT IS. Think of it this way that mold is likely 80-90 tons or 160-180,000 LBS. Now would you want that standing upright or on its side. Better yet think of it as a jar of water that is sitting on a stool would you want it high up or low.
wabash1, I understand and agree with everything you wrote above, except for that I said ‘‘NS is ripping off a shipper’’ or ‘‘stealing’’. Just because the railroad may - or may not - be making a lot of money off the move, doesn’t mean any of that is what is occurring.
As you know, as a common carrier the railroad is legally obligated to accept any load that is tendered to it, providing the shipment conforms to the railroad’s tariff regulations - here, it wouldn’t be a normal ‘Complies with Plate [whatever]’ load, because it does overhang the cars by a few inches, and in these matters it’s ‘A miss is a good as a mile’ kind of thing - and no, I didn’t see those steel plates at first glance, either. But instead, this load apparently could still qualify and move under the ‘High-Wide’ rates, and so the railroad is obligated to move it and charge the appropriate rate. Even though the railroad has people that specialize in measuring and checking the tie-downs, etc. of these loads, it’s not really their job to tell the shipper how to pack and load and rig it for transit. If the shipper wants it to overhang a few inches - hey, he’s supposed to know his job and what he’s doing, right ? Why would the want to railroad ‘‘second-guess’’ that, either from a risk-management / liability-prevention perspective if something went wrong, or from losing up the premium rate ?
Fair enough - except that standing upright - and filled with molten steel, yet - is exactly how they move them in the steel mills, with several at a time on short flat cars over track that is often not the best and nowhere as good/ smooth as NS’ main line is. So I don’t think that’s the determinative factor.
Back in the day, I’ve seen them shipped loaded 2 or 3 in a gondola car, the same way I suggested - longways, laying on their narrow edge. Wonder why that wasn’t done here ?
Hey, if NS can justify and get the premium rate - more power to them.
Paul, even a six-inch overhang on each side of a flat-car platform would make it a high-wide shipment. You’re talking in excess of 11 feet.
I kind of doubt that this thing is light enough that two or three of them would be able to be carried in a gondola. And whatever is on those flat cars is very heavy as well. Couldn’t see the axles, but I’ll bet there are more than four under each car.
A multiple-car shipment like this could have been handled in ordinary freight service, but it would probably be easier for the railroad to put it in a dedicated move that could be kept out of the way when needed, and not switched in the intervening yards.
Following is excerpted from NS Freight Tariff Publication 8002-A - Accessorial Services Rules and Charges (expires 12/31/09), at - http://www.nscorp.com/nscorphtml/publications/NS8002-A.pdf [emphasis added - PDN]:
SECTION 4 RULES, AND REGULATIONS AND CHARGES FOR THE MOVEMENT OF FREIGHT TRAINS
ITEM 4000
APPLICATION OF SPECIAL TRAIN MOVEMENTS
ITEM 4010
ADVANCE N
I for one would NOT want to move a 160K block of motlten steel in an open mold. The molds are normally left to cool then the steel removed then finish work is done to it. Yes you are correct the trackwork in a mill is bad as is the roads in them however the speed is less than a walk also.
The rolling mills look to be on either 8-12 axle flats. Which puts them at around 400K each IIRC from hauling parts for them is about right.
Link to a manufacturer’s photo of a 4-axle, 8- wheel ‘flat car’ rated at 250 tons cap’y., with 6 ingot molds sitting on it - they’re all painted with a ‘‘38’’, which if that means 38 tons each = 228 tons total, though I know they do come bigger:
http://www.irwincar.com/images/irwincar/showroom/250toncapacity.jpg
Link to the introductory ‘Showroom’ page, which has the captions for the photos - another one of which is for a 110 ton car for an ingot at Carpenter Technology Corp, as I mentioned previously:
http://www.irwincar.com/industrial-cars.html
Links to photos of similar ingot molds on standard 4-axle bulkhead flatcars - found by searching for ‘ingot’; if I’d found heavier capacity cars, I’d have posted those links here too:
Load cross-wise -
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1209840
Loaded length-wise -
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1209843
1979 photo of Union RR switcher with 4-axle steel mill flat cars, each with about 5 ingot molds on them -
Paul just what is your point are you trying to impress me or us with your ability to cut and paste. The reason for the special train is convienance. pure and simple. i have ran wide loads cat and john deer on a regular manifest train. the loads came thru every week and was measured nothing strange or out of the ordinary. so we hauled combines on a 10k ton manifest train with all the special train handling and slows that went with it. I told you that the steel slabs was what made the trains wide. and it was for saftey issues , yes they make more money for being charged wide but i also stated that the ns would not be in buisness cheating or stealing on shipping rates when its obvious to the shipper what the charges are. and these are past on to the congsinee.
And as far as the specialized people who make sure these cars are loaded right just look in the cab of the engine, the conductor is first in line if he dont like the way its loaded we set it out. and if he thinks its ok and i dont we still set it out. it will get checked by carmen and signed off then it gets hauled. we are responsible for that train and cargo. and that metal is ordered and shipped like that ive hauled several loads of that and its heavy and wide. Oh and this stuff ussually moves on standard 4 axel cars
Well, I was trying to find and illustrate several points there, which were in doubt or questioned by 1 or more responses above:
Ingot(s) can be shipped on regular 4-axle flat cars;
Ingot(s) don’t necessarily have to go cross-wise - they can be loaded lengthwise so they aren’t a wide load;
Ingot(s) can be handled more than 1 per 4-axle flat car;
Ingot
I’ve handed several ingots like that first one. The one in the photo does look like it is hanging over on the engineer’s side (not by much, but by a couple of inches). Of course you can’t see the other side - many of those loads are not perfectly centered, so it may be hanging over on the other side as well. Why do they position it that way? Who knows. Looks a lot easier to tie down laying down (don’t have to run the straps all the way over the top, you can just run them through the big hole). Probably easier to unload them as well.
As wabash says, they sometimes get their own train, but that is pretty rare anymore. While I was told Conrail ALWAYS moved high and wides as their own separate train, NS has no problems tossing them on the head end of a 150 car manifest freight. Real easy to follow restrictions when you have 12,000 tons behind it… [tdn]
Although, the conductor is NOT the first one to touch the load. High and wides are measured and inspected by inspectors at their origin so that proper clearance paperwork can be drawn up. Then they can only be moved under the authority of chief dispatchers. I once had a H&W nixed at the last minute because there was too much rail traffic running that day to make following the restrictions anything but impossible. Now along line of road, then of course the conductor is in charge of making sure everything looks OK.
To join in the discussion, the flatcars are heavy duty flats with more than 4 axles. I think what some have described as steel plates are actually the deck of the flatcars. So they are probably not oversized dimensional loads. The loads will be held in place on the deck by welded cables and blocks. What they is overweight and the NS includes this as a category that may require a special train movement.
These shipments are usually of very high value items, and a special train greatly reduces the risk of damage due to switching operations, slack action, getting sent over a hump by mistake, or whatever. If there is a speed restriction for the overall movement it will need a special train to avoid delaying the regular schedules. Sometimes an aging bridge will require a drastic slow order and this is more efficiently done with a short dedicated train.
It may be surprising to some that a load would be secured by welding it to the deck, but this is the best way to produce the secure custom fitted tie down that it needs. Once unloaded the deck would be returned to a clean condition. I will try and post a picture of a similar car without a load, just a smooth steel plate as the deck.
John
Finally have figured out how to get the promised picture of the heavy duty flat. (I do this so rarely I have to relearn the process each time.) Anyway, you can see the deck is simply a steel plate, looking very much like the steel plate on those flats in the NS train. Maybe it is even one of those cars.
John
I guess you miss the part where zug and myself said how they put these hgih dollar shipments on the head end of a 12k ton manifest train so we can do all the train handeling while slowing down all that tonnage, we would say this if it wasnt true, Now to answer a question before it is asked, why do we have slow orders or restrictions, imagine you running a train of 131 cars at 7950 ft 12900 tons the first 12 cars are john deer combines and heavy haul trucks and the last 2 cars are flat steel hanging off 7 inches each side. now your comming up on a grain elevator and the restriction is walk by speed ( 5mph or less and able to stop before you hit something) now there is 3 inches cle