Please excuse the question as I dont reside in America but I have a good friend who I talk to regular in Springfield IL. We got talking about NYC Terminal and he sent me a couple of links to Youtube video’s of the final approaches to the terminal, about 4 miles before the tunnels.
I noticed alot of cross overs here but apart from some inside the tunnels, I cant see any signals!
Does it use some sort of cab signalling maybe?
You may be onto something there. I know cab signals were used later on in the eastern US. Not sure if cab signaling was around in NYC days…
-Justin
MNRR has cab signals and PTC (I think) with no wayside signals except at interlockings, turnouts or crossovers. Once inside the tunnels signals are low signals (low signals, not dwarf signals being dwarf usually governs reverse moves). Of course an interlocking could mean a whole series or routeing from the enterence to the interlocking on through to the end of the route and therefore there would be only one signal upon entering and not at every switch or crossover.
I got ya with that theory, thanks.
What does MNRR stand for? Metro North Rail Road maybe?
Is PTC something train control?
I alaways thought that only the high speed stuff in France and Germany had cab signalling due to the fact that the trains go so fast (180MPH +) the human factor cannot be relied upon to read the signals at those speeds.
In the UK we only have one line with cab signalling to cater for the 185mph Euro Star trains that come from / to the channel tunnel. All the rest of our network is conventional color light and semaphore signals.
MNRR is Metro North Railroad, a commuter line mostly of former New York Central and New Haven railroads track but also provides service from Suffern to Port Jervis on the old Erie Lackawanna, nee Erie railfoad (leases track from Norfolk Southern and contracts with New Jersey Transit to operate).
Cab signalling is quite commen in the US for both passenger and freight railroads. This is combined with PTC, postiive train control, in many dense commuter lines and has been mandated to be in place on all traffic warrented rail routes, commuter or not. Alas, most speeds are 79MPH and under but some rare occasions are allowed in the 90s and rearer still, over 100mph.
PTC sounds similar to here. We have a system called TPWS (train protection & warning system). If the engineer blows a red light or he approaches a red to fast, the system will intervene and apply the brakes automaticly. Same happens if he approaches a less restrictive aspect like a yellow or ‘double yellow’ to fast.
We had AWS (automatic warning system) for maybe 50 years or more. It would warn the engineer of adverse signals via a visual and audible system in the cab but it was still possible for the engineer to cancel the warning and so stop an auto brake application and still run past a red signal. We’ve only had the TPWS for about 17 years. There were some real nasty accidents before it was fitted nationally.
Thanks very much for your replys!
Positive Train Control is a new version of an old idea, an automatic system to stop a train if it passes a restricting signal, but it will have features that the older systems (such as Automatic Train Stop) didn’t have. I am by no means an expert (there are people on this board who are) but the major difference from what I understand is that it relies on Global Positioning Satellites (GPS) and computers on the train instead of wayside electrical controls as ATS did. The idea has been around since the GPS system first went up decades ago, but the freight railroads dragged their feet because of cost and the lack of a unified standard for the technology. That changed with the Metrolink crash in 2008, a national law was passed in response that mandated that any rail line hauling passengers or hazardous materials must have PTC in place by 2015.
Oh yes, that Metrolink crash was trully shocking, especially some of the circumstances surrounding it. We had a very similar crash here back in 1999. This went dwon as being known as the Ladbroke Grove rail crash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladbroke_Grove_rail_crash
The closing speed of the 2 passenger trains was 130 MPH, the cause was the engineer of one of the passenger trains passing a red signal after he was blinded by low sun light and the poor placement of the signal relating to the sighting of it. This was one such disaster that led to our TPWS system (like PTC).
Interesting, I recall the Ladbroke Grove crash, I was in England the following summer and it was still being talked about. This is a bit OT, but looking over the report you linked to one especially notices the blame that is attributed to privatization in the accident, this quote especially:
Both crashes would have been prevented by an operational ATP (Automatic Train Protection) system, but wider fitting of this had been rejected on cost grounds. This severely damaged public confidence in the management and regulation of safety of Britain’s privatised railway system.
And this:
Thames Trains had inherited a driver training package[36] from British Rail, but this had evolved to the point where in Feb 1999, a concerned incoming training manager commissioned an external audit which reported[37]
“The trainers did not appear to be following the training course syllabus and supporting notes as they considered these to be ‘not fit for purpose’ with inappropriate time allowances for some sessions. The traction and introduction to driving section of the course has been extended and the six week route learning session is being used as additional practical handling”.
Indeed Michael Hodder’s 16 weeks practical training had been given by a trainer who felt that “I was not there to teach … the routes. I was totally
When did MetroNorth remove the high signals-- 1990s?
MetroNorth has some sort of “cab signals” or train control or whatever; so does the line betw Boston and Washington. UP’s main Omaha-Ogden still has cab signals? CNW still has ATC across Iowa?
Does any other US rail line have any form of in-cab signals/control?
LIRR, NJT, SEPTA, MARC, MBTA, AMTRAK…just to name a few…more to come on line soon.
Yes, Justin, the NYC had cab signals. The PRR also had cab signals; I am not sure just what lines did, but I have the inpression that the main east-west lines of both roads (as well as NYC-Washington on the PRR did). These were in addition to lineside signals, just as the UP’s cab signals were in addition to the lineside signals.
I have a 1943 Southern Railway rule book (I wish you or somebody else could tell me where I put it[:)]) which shows cab signals in addition to lineside signals. However, none of the SOU employee timetables I have of that period indicate that cab signals are in use. Perhaps the Washington-Salisbury stretch did have cab signals since, as well as I can determine, the Washington and Danville divisions did not have ATS, even though the rest of the main line to Birmingham, as as well as several other lines did have ATS. Indeed, I cannot think of any line with ABS (except Washington-Salisbury) that did not have ATS.
The UP still has it’s cab signal, and the exCNW ATC systems on their respective portions.
The IC had cab signals/train control on some of their lines. Part of their north/south main had it, as did their subdivision between Waterloo and Ft. Dodge in Iowa. The Iowa portion lasted into CC&P days and possibly into the CN era. It has been deactivated and replaced with CTC, but I’m not sure when, I think in the early CN era. I don’t know about the other IC equipped lines.
The ICC back in the late 40s/early 50s issued a mandate to railroads to equip at least one passenger district with some form of cab signal/train stop/control system. Who actually did what, where I’m not certain. Some cab signals systems (CNW’s ATC from the 1920s for example) predate the ICC order. Some of those installations (IC Iowa Division example) may have been deactivated by now. The RI had it between Rock Island and Chicago and Metra still uses it on it’s ex RI lines. Other than that and the exCNW commuter lines using ATC, I don’t know if the other Metra lines have, or had,some form of cab signals.
Jeff
Most of Norfolk Southern’s ex-PRR main lines still have cab signals, and an advanced train control system. zugmann here can provide details - he’s previously remarked how nice it is to operate with the in-cab signals during bad weather.
I suspect that many of the ex-N&W main lines have cab signals, but am not sure about that.
I’m not opening that can of worms again…
What does the CNW system look like along the tracks? I saw the old Rock Island deactivated lineside wires on the Iowa Interstate near Bureau IL in the mid-ninties, I don’t know if they are still there, but it looked like thin wires wrapped around a thicker wire strung from poles and dangling down around six inches, the best I could describe would be like the spring on a ball point pen, running continuously along the track, suspended by poles that were also for the signal system wires, the dispatcher phone line and probably telegraph at one time. By that point little remained of the signal system, the few cyclops signals that remained had the lenses all shot out.
I’m not sure what you saw hanging along the old RI, but it sounds more like the derelict and vandalized old pole lines. The continuous cab signal systems send the signal thru the rails and is picked up by receiver heads mounted behind the pilot and forward of the first axle. That receiver gear would be hard to see unless you are right by the locomotive. There isn’t really anything much different trackside from a regular wayside signal system. All the equipment to send the signals thru the rails is in the lineside relay cabinets/bungalows you see associated with block signals.
Lines equipped with intermittant automatic train stop do have wayside equipment that transmits a signal to a passing locomotive. That signal is picked up by a receiver mounted (the ones I’ve seen on UP/CNW equipment) on the front axle on the engineer’s side. Much
[quote user=“DwightBranch”]
Interesting, I recall the Ladbroke Grove crash, I was in England the following summer and it was still being talked about. This is a bit OT, but looking over the report you linked to one especially notices the blame that is attributed to privatization in the accident, this quote especially:
Both crashes would have been prevented by an operational ATP (Automatic Train Protection) system, but wider fitting of this had been rejected on cost grounds. This severely damaged public confidence in the management and regulation of safety of Britain’s privatised railway system.
And this:
Thames Trains had inherited a driver training package[36] from British Rail, but this had evolved to the point where in Feb 1999, a concerned incoming training manager commissioned an external audit which reported[37]
“The trainers did not appear to be following the training course syllabus and supporting notes as they considered these to be ‘not fit for purpose’ with inappropriate time allowances for some sessions. The traction and introduction to driving section of the course has been extended and the six week route learning session is being used as additional practical handling”.
Indeed Michael Hodder’s 16 weeks practical training had been given by a trainer who felt that “I was not
Sounds like you’re thinking of the 1920s. No such ICC order in the 1940s-50s.
Somewhere along the time line the ICC did order cab signals. I thought the reason was to allow 80mph or better running. After that you’d have to restrict speed to 79mph or less.