Couple of questions - Are these the same cars as the #19171 set? Are these cars supposed to represent a ‘named train’, and if so, do you know which one?
Regarding psotwar prototype NYC passanger trains headed by F3s - based on my research so far, this seems to have occured for only a brief period before the F3s were replaced by E7s in 1948.
Since 20th Century Limited is a very popular train to model in NYC livery, seems most passanger cars from Lionel and others model that train, although sometimes apparantly significantly shortening the cars to accomodate toy train layout non scale curves.
Walthers released a very nice looking HO 20th Century Limited, headed by A - B E7s (thanks Bob, I’m now i
I don’t have the exact issues at hand, but within the last year “The Headlight”, the quarterly publication of the New York Central Historical Society, did a two-part story on the arrival of the E-7s from EMD in 1945. They arrived in a two-tone gray scheme matching the 1938 Twentieth Century scheme - medium gray body, dark gray thru the window sections with white stripes - except one A-B set of E-7s which were all black but had the same white “lightning stripes” as the gray ones. All of the E-7s were later repainted into the ‘reverse’ scheme as modelled by Walthers, dark gray body with medium gray thru the windows.
E-units worked the Century until it was removed in the sixties, though I’m sure F’s were used in some situations. Unlike the western roads (Great Northern, Santa Fe) the NYC had a very flat mainline, so the E-units worked well on their line whereas other roads had to switch to F’s to slog up the mountain grades.
The 6 cars shown are the 19171 and 21780 sets you originally mentioned. It’s entirely possible (and likely) the combo car “Martin Van Buren” I used to show the overhang is from the add-on 2 pack. 4 pack is likely 2 coach cars, baggage and observation. 2 pack is probably sleeper and combo.
Off the top of my head I forget the names of all the cars, but I think Castleton Bridge, Manhattan Island and 2570(baggage) are a start. I’ll check the others at home later and maybe that will help you find out if it was a named train or not. II’ll also confirm the contents of each set.
These were catalogged back around 1997, maybe as late as 1999 for the add-on 2 pack and/or the B-unit. The Lionel Classic 2 catalog from 1997 featured the NYC PA-1 Alco on the cover, I think the cars (4 pack) were also inside, though it’s possible they were a catlog later.
Here’s the details on the six cars. I can’t help fill in the blanks on the 2500 numbers that seem to not be present (no idea what 2571 and 2574 might be), hopefully some Post War enthusiasts can help with that. I assume the reason the add-on pack does not have 2500 numbers is that those type cars didn’t exist in Post War?
19171 4 car Set
19172 2570 Baggage
19173 2572 Manhattan Island Diner
19174 2573 Queensboro Bridge Coach
19175 2575 Windgate Brook Observation
21780 2 car Add On Set
29140 Castleton Bridge Duplex Roomette
29141 Martin Van Buren Combo Car
I feel like we’re getting closer and closer to the historical truth!
Wikipedia ( I think) or a ‘20th C’ web site, as I recall, without rechecking, implied that E7s replaced F3s because they were more powerful??
Walthers modeled the 1948 20th C Limited with E7 A & B units (HO). Supposedly these cars were mostly all new in 1948 (the sleepers), while dining and parlor were rebodied older 'heavyweight" cars.
Nothing I read mentioned a 20th C headed by PA ALCO power, although I’m pretty sure the NYC did have some. Perhaps this was a much later configuration??
Overall, it seems likely that the cars in the #19171 set would not be significantly different from ones running in 1948, even if the PA / PB power units were used 5 or 10 years later. Now whether the ‘new for 1948’ cars were ever headed by an F3 is still unresolved in my mind, since it seems the E7 was introduce for 20th C service at that time.
Stopped by my LHS to take another look at the #19171 set. Discovered that the cars are plastic, I had thought they were aluminum. Trucks are also plastic. A bit disappointing.
Yet I think I saw an add for some 20th C Lionel cars is aluminum?
John Fuller: feel like demo-ing the capabilities of your mitrains software to find all the 20th C pass sets, Alu and otherwise?
The car bodies are in fact aluminum. The roofs (probably due to the fine ridges) are plastic, as are the end caps and the trucks. I needed to check the trucks with a magnet to make sure - if they are metal, they are aluminum as well, but I’m not about to do any destructive testing to confirm further )
While reading the latest CTT, I noted Grzyboski’s has the 6 car set for $395. Not a bad deal if this is a set you are looking for. I think runtime had decided against these, but I figured I would bring it up just in case, as the 2 extra cars were an earlier question.
(I have no association with Grzyboski’s aside form being a satisfied customer)
Thanks for the heads up. That is better than the $350/$380 (I forget) that I was quoted for just the 4 car set. Haven’t heard of Grzyboski’s; assume he is near your location.
But to match properly, seems I should have an AA/AB/ABA? set of E7s. Did anyone make such an engine set? On the other hand, Lionel’s PW NYC F3s may be a reasonable fudge.
I would think E7s would look way too large with these cars. If you are focusing so much on prototypical accuracy in terms of consist/match, these might not be for you.
You’ve seen what they look like behind the PA’s. The F3 is somewhat shorter than the PA. I’m relatively certain all E7s made have been very close to scale and are a bit longer than either PAs or F3s.
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