I’m looking to buy an O-27 Compatible Diesel that will handle 5122/5121 switches. I would like dual motors with at least horn, if not horn and sounds. I would like to pull maybe 7 cars up 3% grade. (JUST A WISH) It doesn’t need to be AA, could be single unit and I would like to keep it budget friendly, AKA <$300
Please help if this is going to be possible. As much as I would love to build a huge layout with all O72 curves and all top of the line Locos and rolling stock, my pocket book said NO
I don’t know of any O27 locomotives from the postwar period that had dual motors, but Williams has done reproductions of the classic Lionel ALCo FA which, unlike the Lionel originals, have two motors.
Lionel did also make some dual-motor ALCo FAs (I think in the 1990s and 2000s?), but they use a cheaper design with smaller motors, located in the trucks. You’re much better off going for the Williams, imho.
I’m not sure if the postwar Lionel GP7/GP9 plays nice with those switches, but again, Williams has offered a reproduction which has dual motors. The Williams models generally use Pittman can motors, which are pretty powerful and of good quality.
There were other diesels in the product line but those had a minimum curve requirement of 031. (Although they MIGHT have let you get away with running them on 027 but I wouldn’t count on it.)
They also had a GE 44-Ton switcher but that only had one motor. It was good for 027 as well.
Their non-scale PRR GG-1 electric was twin-motor as well and will handle 027 curves. Just so you know.
All of these have been out of production for some time but they show up at train shows pretty often and with on-line sellers like trainz.com. Also check the major advertisers in Classic Toy Trains, they may still have some on hand.
The nice thing about Williams is they were produced in pretty good quantities and collector interest is low so they tend to be VERY reasonably priced when you run into them. I’ve got a number of Williams engines and they’re great value for the money!
The 512x switches have the same solenoid cover profile as the later version of the postwar 1122, so a Lionel postwar or MPC era F3, GP7/9, or ALCO (or one of their Williams clones) would make it through.
I think there are probably more options than you think there are. I’d look for something that strikes your fancy, then see if it goes through the switch. As far as the grade issue, look for something with traction tires. 90’s era production would give you more sound options.
I know MTH Rail King F3s say they are O31, but if the wheel base isn’t any longer than a MPC, and the body isn’t any wider (this may be the killer) I’ve got a suspicion it may fit. Maybe an MTH aficionado will weigh in on that.
ill tell u what when it comes to these engines on o27 their nice only downfall i have is the switches so if your considering something like this watch out on the MARX switches
Are there any Williams diesels and/or electrics to avoid due to known issues with zinc pest and metal fatigue? I had a pair of their Amtrak F-units as a kid, decades ago and would love to get some Williams powered units again.
My experience with this era of F3s is that the peculiar motor mounting(with the horizontal motors) does NOT play very nicely on tight radius curves. Heck, I really don’t even care for running them on O31…
Newer(later postwar) Lionel F3s with the vertical motor are a bit of a different story…
Not to sidetrack too much, and I’ve never actually owned a WIlliams product, but did they actually use Pittman motors in their postwar “reproduction” locos?
Lionel and MTH seemed to keep Pittmans for high end steamers, and now they are basically gone from that application since Pittman priced themselves out of the market.
Again, I’m going on second hand info, having never owned one and only paid a bit of attention to the tear-downs and repairs of them, but I’d always assumed that they used vertical Mabuchi or equivalent cans like what Lionel, MTH, K-line, Atlas, etc use/used in their newer dual motor diesels
Not to make too many posts in a row in this thread, but just as a general comment I’d take a look at some of the Lionel offerings from the MPC/Kughn era that use the in-truck spur geared can motor. Most of those can navigate pretty tight turns(O27 at least). They’re often inexpensive. They made a lot of car body designs with this, including IIRC some Geeps, some U-boats, FAs, and several others.
I’m not the biggest fan of this particular drive, especially since they had to use a pretty puny motor to fit it they way they did in the truck. With that said, they do have one kind of nice feature in that because they are spur geared, the wheels can easily “reverse drive” the motor when stopping. Worm drive can motors often have flywheels to add a bit of rotating mass and give SOME momentum when stopping since these sort of worms can’t generally be reverse driven(and the Lionel worms that will reverse drive, like the horizontal F3s or some of the big steamers, often are at the wrong end of the torque curve to do it to any great degree). These spur gear driven can motors WILL keep going with just the momentum of the train they’re pulling when they stop. I actually like it as an operating feature, although you’re also not pulling much with one of these between the tiny motor, the less-than-favorable gearing, and the light weight of the locos they’re often installed in.
had it running the other day i need to get a video one day because im on a hill and nothing was bedded real well thats where my derailment problems occured but once leveled out ran fine its just the switches like i said before
During the run of the original “Williams Reproductions” company, they definitely did. I have a water-damaged Trainmaster that I am slowly working on trying to revive, and it has honest-to-goodness Pittman DC can motors in it. I can’t vouch as much for newer ones, I would not be shocked if they stopped using the Pittman name brand on later models under Bachmann ownership. But they still use large, powerful can motors. They just may not be as end-user serviceable as the genuine Pittmans.
I’m a big fan of RailKing products and I WILL say this:
Typically a minimum curve (say 031) will be assigned to assure the locomotive will navigate switches with no problem. An 031 model produced by anyone MAY handle an 027 curve, it’s been done, but I wouldn’t count on it.
I have a Williams 2-8-4 Berkshire steam locomotive that’s specified 031 but will handle 027 curves if the speed is kept down but I’ve also got an Atlas coal hopper that’s specified 031 that WON’T go through an 027 curve!
My advice as far as minimum curves are concerned is take the manufacturers word for it and don’t assume otherwise. It’d be a shame to spend a ton of money on a locomotive you can’t use.
Maybe some of the old-old-old Williams engines had zinc pest issues (and even then I don’t believe it was widespread) but I haven’t seen any produced in the 10 years prior to their being sold to Bachmann and into the Bachmann era that have had zinc pest problems. None of my Williams engines have had the problem.
I don’t think it’s worth worrying about.
It would be difficult for a lot of old-old-old Williams to have zinc pest considering that most I’m familiar with is brass!
Williams really has been all over the place, and it seems that their brass models often get forgotten.
I was close not too long ago to buying a Williams Southern Crescent Pacific. I nearly did, but for the asking price I’d have preferred it not be the “sparsely detailed” model this particular one was(back in the brass days they usually made a nice but plain version and a nicer one with a lot of separate add on detail) and also I wasn’t sure I was even set up to handle it and the associated 21" heavyweights!
Even though I’ve never actually owned any Wililiams stuff, it seems like my lack of it is a serious deficiency in my roster. Honestly, what’s not to like about it?
