I am interested in the wisdom of trying to change or kitbash a cheap metal steam engine in HO scale from a UP to FEC. I remember having a Mikado from Mantua/Tyco when I was much younger which was a good runner and fairly kid proof. As this will be my first attempt to customise a steam engine in metal rather than a plastic diesel any advise will help. My theory is if its fairly cheap and I does not go as planed it will have been a cheap lesson/learning expereince. I know Mantua was at the lower end when new but can’t they be improved or are they even worth it? Thank you in advance for any help.
I had one of those back when I was a kid - circa 1970. It’s minimum speed was pretty high, but it was semi-indestructible. There was no gearbox - the worm on the motor shaft engaged the worm gear on the main driver axle. Power was transmitted to the other wheels via the side rods.
I added a bit of piping and other details, but I never did much with the running gear.
It should be fairly easy to add details to the metal boiler using ACC glue, but I wouldn’t try soldering on it - a MAPP gas torch probably wouldn’t heat that much metal that hot!
You can probably get a really good-looking loco in the end, but unless you’re a magician with running gear, it will still run like a Mantua.
Anyway, post some pics of what you do, OK?
Good luck!
The Mantua metal 4-6-2 is a B&O prototype. The early versions were all metal. At various times plastic began to be used for the tender, cab and if memory serves, the pilot. The oldest ones often offer somewhat sharper detail – back when the molds were brand new. I also think the older ones had a better motor.
At one time spoked 80" replacement drivers were available with a gear that matched the Mantua motor’s worm. Don’t forget the replacement boilers Cary offers, or offered, for the Mantua chassis. There might be a boiler closer to your FEC prototype.
They are seen frequently at swap meets sometimes for as little as $15 or $20. Often a poor paint job is the reason for a cheap price but since the boiler is all metal it is easy enough to use a stripper to remove old paint.
Without knowing more about the prototype you are trying to simulate another option might be the Bowser New York Central 4-6-2 in metal, although it is more rare to see that engine used at a swap meet for a cheap price. The John English metal 4-6-2 is sometimes also seen at swap meets but those have not been made for 40 years and parts are harder to come by.
Dave Nelson
Here is a good source for repowering older Mantua/ Tyco steam engines.
“Alliance Locomotive Products,Inc., home of the Helix Humper line of replacement can motors and accesories for HO & N Scale Locomotives.”
http://www.alliancelink.com/alp/
#162 Mantua 4-6-2 Pacific/4-6-4 Hudson/2-8-2 Heavy Mikado/2-8-4 Berkshire $39.95
Starting around 1989-90 a lot of the Mantua engines started to come with a can motor and enclosed gearbox from the factory. I have one of the first engines to have both (a 2-8-2) and it’s a very good runner. If you can find a Mantua 4-6-2 from the nineties you would probably be able to add detailing and come up with a good looking / good running engine. (Mantua also offered a replacement motor/gearing upgrade kit.)
Mantua steam may not look all that hot (crude details, no know prototypes for most of the line, etc) but they may well be the most solidly built and reliable engines ever made for this hobby. I’ve got two of my father’s Pacifics that he built around 1962 or so, and they still work beautifully. Besides the occasional lubing and cleaning, I’ve had to replace the motor commutators, but that’s about it.
When I was freelancing, most of my mainline power was Mantua, specifically their Pacifics, Mikes, and kitbashed Mountains. Remotoring the engines is probably a good idea, and you can’t go wrong with the Helix Humper sets. They’re a bit pricey, but WELL worth it. You get slow speed fine control, a lower top speed, and no decrease in pulling ability (Mantuas are GREAT pullers. My Mikes will do 100 cars on the flat)
Changing details is another subject. The process is similar to superdetailing diesels, but on metal engines the technique is completely different. You’ll need a Dremel tool and a wide variety of attachments and drills, as well as a good set of files (large and small). A drill press will come in handy to add mounting holes, and cutting oil is a MUST. Adding details requires either superglue, epoxy or soldering. You’ll be able to find most of the detail parts you need (Bowser and affiliates, Precision Scale, PIA, Greenway Products) but be ready for some sticker shock (steam details run about twice that of diesel, and there are more details to add).
Superdetailing a steamer to the same quality as today’s superdetailed diesles IS possible, it just takes more work, money and time. Of course, all that extra work is much more apparent than similar work on diesels. And steam is just so much cooler than a powered boxcar!
The old Tyco/Mantua Pacifics and Mikados are great models to start with for detailing projects. Properly built, they can be extremely smooth running locos, and, as noted, are great pullers. NWSL offers regearing sets for these locos and it’s easy to install a can motor. The August and September 2006 issues of RMC have a feature on building an Ann Arbor Mike, starting with the Tyco model, and the change in appearance is surprising.
Wayne
rrandb,
You should be aware there are several types of Mantua drives. The older one has been covered fairly well here. The main problem with that drive was the lack of a gearbox and the resulting imperfect worm/drive gear relationships. I have not used the Helix system but it looks like a good system for the older drive. The other alternative is to replace it with a NWSL gearbox and can motor, which is harder than the Helix kit.
The latest Mantua drive was called “Power Drive” and can be I.D. by looking for an enclosed worm gear. The motor was setback further and connected with a plastic tube. This setup was a huge improvement over the older one. Slow speed is greatly improved and more importantly, allows more options for repowering the engine. Because the worm is now mounted in a box, the motor does not have to be directly mounted to the worm. The first Power Drive version came with an open frame motor, later changed to a can motor. Either one would be my choice if looking for used. Avoid basket cases, spend a little extra and get a good starting point. An un-built Power Drive kit would be ideal for what you are trying to do.
My Mikado was an early Power Drive unit. I used a Sagami 2032 motor with 2 Timewell Flywheels mounted back to back on the rear shaft. The front of the motor was connected to the Worm with NWSL driveshafts. The boiler did require some grinding on the inside to get the 20mm motor to fit. A flat can motor, such as the Mashima or Kato, could have been used with little or no grinding. I wanted as large a motor as possible inside mine so that is why I chose the round can. It creeps as slow as I care to run it.
Another nice addition is to replace the leading and trailing wheels of the loco and center tender wheels with NWSL replacements. The st
Thanks to everyone for there generouse responses. Cost is less than $20 and only known defect is missing tender drawbar. The motor is alive but there is bindind in side rod linkage. I plan to remotor and streamline running gear. The FEC had everything from light Pacifics on the key west extension to big time heavy high steppers for there famous " Speedway to Sunshine" raceway from Jacksonville to Miami. It was 400 miles of board flat straight track. By the time they rolled thru my town in Cocoa, Florida, which was about halfway, they were just a blur. It was an amazement and a thing of beauty to see a headlight go from a speck on the horizon to a thundering, roaring, smokeing, living beheamoth and then back to just marker lights in a what seemed like the blink of an eye. Alas now only in a minature scale. It sounds encouraging and thanks to all again. I will have to learn to post photos as I have a digital camera.
I’ve got a few of these (6 at least) and just discovered the Helix Humper remoter kit. I got one from Yardbirdtrains.com, to test, and can vouch for it. It makes the Pacific a wonderful runner, I’ve got to contact Dan over there and order 5 more. I’ve also added a Soundtraxx Steam sound decoder to the tender witthe the large oval speaker from Tonystrains.com, and now it also has great “Sound”!!! These are great project locos, take your time, upgrade the moter to the Helix Humper, add sound if you’ve got DCC, and it’ll quickly become one of your favorite locos. Now all I have to do is build a layout, but it’s fun upgrading my locos I had as a kid in the time being.
Robert
I pulled up the web site and the Helix Humper looks to be the way to go. How much did it set you back to do the conversion. Just the Helix as I have no DCC yet.
It will just cost you the $40 for the Helix Humper, since the motor & bracket are mostly a drop-in replacement for the old open frame motors. The instructions are posted here: http://www.alliancelink.com/alp/162.htm
I would give one bit of advice to anyone considering one of these: stay away from those marketed through Tyco. I bought a Tyco Pacific as a kid in 1976, and it never ran right. Tyco saved a few pennies by eliminating the brass driver bearings that Mantua used, and the axles were so loose in the frame that the side-to-side motion of the drivers was worse than any engine I’ve had. Caused it to lose traction, in spite of the engine’s weight. I did everything I could to eliminate the slop, but nothing worked. If I still had it, I’d buy a new frame from Yardbird, but I sold it several years ago.
Nelson
I just finished repowering mine, installing a DCC decoder and a Seuthe smoke unit. The diecast boiler eliminates a lot of the melting problems you can have with plastic boilers. This loco had worn one of the siderods all the way thru where it connects to the driver. I got it when I was 6 yrs. old and I’m 42 now. It runs alot smoother with the new motor and decoder. I think these make pretty good engines if you can get them at bargain prices.
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How were you able to solve the wornout side rod. Are there parts available or did you git from a salvaged parts loco? Are there parts avaulable? Thank you in advance.
rrandb,
As has been posted previously, Yardbird Trains is a great source of Mantua parts, remotoring kits, & extra detail. Follow this link: http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/YBSMparts.htm
Nelson
Model Power bought Mantua and carries their replacement parts. I also requested an instruction sheet that they included at no extra charge. I have that here somewhere and will try to locate it. It has drawings, parts lists, and prices. Also, I failed to mention this earlier. If you want to make your own drawbar, use styrene or some other none conductive material or you will have a short. The tender underframe is diecast and the wheels pick up electricity. Hope this helps. Tweet
Yes that is a good point. I was planning on using a round spru to simulate the oil feed line that FEC used. There engines were oil burners except in the earlier days. They had both heavy and light pacifics. I will try to model one of their heavier mainline express engines.They powered their winter season high speed Miami bound “Speedway To Sunshine” name trains. They later went to high drivered Mountain types due to the ever increasing train weights. Any suggestions for a good canidate for a “big wheel/tall drivered” mountain. P.S. Brass is not in the budget.
Thanks so much for alerting me to this wonderful and useful website! I never knew they existed
Dave Nelson
Dave,
Yes, they have everything – even have their instructions posted online, and a 4 wheel trailing truck so you can create your own (very generic) Hudson or Berkshire. I discovered them 2 or 3 years ago on Ebay.
BTW, I like your profile:
| Interests | model trains, toy trains, real trains, imaginary trains, domestic trains, foreign trains, cheap trains, expensive trains, new trains, old trains. Also trains and, from time to time, trains. |
|---|
That pretty much covers it!
Nelson