As most of you know my goal is to model the 1890’s California Redwoods. But I keep running into obstacles.
Manufacturers don’t seem to want to make old time steamers and when they do they are preety poor excuses for runners. I have 2 4-4-0s and neither wants to cross a frog without stalling or start without a push. While I can get a decoder in the IHC tender, Bachman went an put a motor in theirs. I got a couple 2-6-0s that are DCC ready, but I think I’m looking at N scale decoders. I have 3 1920’s steamers that are easy pie for decoders. All the geared locos are post 1920. And forget switchers as well.
Then there are the structures. There are tons of structures for the 1920’s but for 1890’s I have to find old kits on eBay or scratch build.
Then there is the matter of historical accuracy. If I follow the path I seem to be heading down, the really cool modelable features of the California Western came later than 1900. The CW (formed in 1907) joined with the Northwestern Pacific in 1912, and built a really cool spur along the beach in 1917.
But I could deal with these issues with creative imagination and work. But today when I watched the Digitrax demo of thier sound decoders, it dawned on me. No one is ever going to make sound decoders for pre 1900’s steamers.
They won’t because no one is making a decent engine to pu them in. No matter how much I modify these shells, no matter how good I get them to run, they will never have sound.
Update to 1910. With a little backdating, you’ll be able to use the Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0, 0-6-0T and 4-6-0, and might even be able to squeeze in the SY Mike and Russian 2-10-0 (but not as a “Russian” engine). You’ll also be able to use the much better running IHC “modern” 4-4-0, as well as their 2-6-0 and 2-8-0.
Right now, trying to model 1890, you’re in a fringe area of the hobby. Yes, you CAN get decent running steam, and WITH sound, but it requires a learning curve and skills set that you may not actually be ready for. Upgrading used brass steam and configuring UK steam sound for American applications (or switching to DC and using a PFM sound system) might not be your bag right now.
Well, first of all, Chip–a lot of the California buildings that look as if they were built in the 1920’s were actually built before the turn of the 20th century. Brick was big back then–it was fireproof, and mining and lumbering towns were always burning up. By the 1880’s, most towns had a lot of brick buildings. The kits from Walthers, DPM and other sources are just about period ready as is, or with just a little alteration (window frames, roof details, etc.). As far as wooden buildings, IHC makes some cheapy store kits that pass very well as ‘false-front’ buildings. With VERY little tinkering, you can have an 1880’s town with no problem. Just remember–wooden sidewalks. You can do that by just overlaying the cement sidewalks that come with the kits with Central Valley wood fencing. Voila! Wooden sidewalks!
As to your locos stalling at your frogs–if you’ve got Atlas, you can buy an accessory that will power the frogs. If you go Peco or Walthers or Sinohara, you’ve got ‘through’ frogs, that need a little wiring, but the locos will sail right through them without any problem. Even the little 4-4-0’s.
Can’t help you with the DCC or decoders, since I’m strictly DC, but Soundtraxx puts out a ‘small steam’ sound system (fixed under the table) that is about as authentic as you can find for early steam. And you can program in a ‘doppler’ effect that makes you think the sound is coming from the loco, and not a fixed under-the-table speaker. I use their larger ‘Heartland Steam’ system for my non-sound locos, and it works really well.
Hope this helps a little–don’t cry UNCLE!, there are always solutions out there. You might have to do a bit of hunting, but so far I haven’t come up with any problems that can’t be solved by cutting, re-wiring, begging, borrowing, stealing or cursing.
Tom [:P][:P]
i understand your quest for historical accuracy , but i thnk at some point you either have to compromise , or realize that you’re going to be doing a whole lot of work , sometimes with minimally acceptable (to you) results .
i also originally wanted to model pre-1900 but found that equipment was very rare . this was 10 years ago and the situation hasn’t changed much . so i say i’m modelling 1915 but i’ll run anything that i think ‘fits’ my railroad . this means 4-6-0’s and 2-8-0’s will be my largest locos (unless i just have to buy some larger loco that will run as just-passing-through) , 36’ boxcars and 50’ passenger cars will be the longest , all cars of wood construction , most with truss rods .
if you look real hard there are crafsman kits for many older rail cars , they’re just hard to find . certainly we aren’t going to see much RTR stuff
it does get frustrating to read MR every month , checking the new releases section and not seeing anything that’s appropriate , but every now and again something shows up .
i often read ‘Narrow Guage and Short Line Gazette’ magazine for inspiration . not only are there gorgeous layouts in small niche market scales , but the smaller manufacturers who can’t afford to advertise in MR are there , i’ve found a few kit makers that i haven’t seen elsewhere . also there’s a lot of scratchbuilding going on there , i’m not at that stage yet , but i’m sure i’ll get there eventually
of course none of the above addresses your large-decoder-in-a-small-loco problem . that may take a couple of years as advances are made in n scale sound decoders
anyway , stick with it . build the railroad with what is available now , and plan to replace ‘unprototypical’ and ‘unhistorical’ items at a later date when some smart manufacturer decides to build it .
Your expectation’s are too high. You have a bad case of overenthusiasm.
All one can do is simulate - set a stage for the player’s. not perform a whole Opera.
A logging layout only has to have trees with a track running through it. It’s scenery intensive.
Old time engine’s and car’s are in short supply - therefor expensive. Yes, even brass.
A Hogswart’s express doesn’t fit this stage even when it run’s.
Have you looked at On3? One engine all you need.
Finally, when it comes to equipment, ‘Cheep’ is for the bird’s - if you have high expectation’s. Whatever you buy has to perform. E Bay is not your friend.
Chip, all the things you mention are the reasons I “modernized” my railroad to the 1920’s. I still love those old 1800’s engines and rolling stock and when I find some, I use it on my layout as you can always have earlier equipment and still be “Prototype?”. We should start a petition to send to all the manufacturers asking them to build some good running late 1800’s stuff! [}:)]
I second Don’s suggestion that you take a detailed look at On30. My wife and mother-in-law purchased that Bradford Exchange Thomas Kinkaid Christmas set, I think by Bachmann. The old Mogul pulls very well, reliably, and hugs the track like its life depended on it…EZ-Track. It has all of the looks, all of the room you’d need for digital ops, and a heft that only those who have fondled O stuff can appreciate.
I thought about On30 as soon as I finshed posting. I agree that for an early period modeler, it might be the answer. Bachmann, BLI and now brass is getting on the On30 bandwagon, and it’s pretty simple to model. And the best thing of all is that you can take decent HO drive trains (like from the IHC 4-4-0) and backdate it with a new PVC boiler and Pre Scale O scale detail parts.
On30 keeps calling my name, but I’ve so far succeeded in resisting that urge. If somebody comes out with a EBT 2-8-2, I’m going to have a heck of a hard time not switching scales!
Let me ease one minor worry. You said “forget switchers as well”. This is true but not for the reasons you seem to think. It’s really much simpler than that: there were few if any purpose-built switchers in 1890. That innovation didn’t come along until after the turn of the century and, for some railroads, it never did. A switcher back then was simply an old road engine (maybe with the long cow catcher of the period replaced by foot boards).
At least with the Digitrax or LokSound decoders you can make a trip to a steam museum and make your own sound recording for an old loco.
I struck the same issue only worse: I want to model a turn-of-the-last-century New Zealand line that used a number of Baldwin locos on 3’6". I’ve chosen to keep modeling modern USA in HO, and doing the old time stuff in G in the garden: less expectation of prototype fidelity and more old-time narrow gaudge stuff available
Consider yourself lucky that you don’t model in 1/64 scale! Perhaps On30 as others have mentioned is the ticket. You could have O scale in the same space as HO and
access to a greater variety of equiptment without the hassle of a smaller scale .
Just my [2c]
Have you tried Roundhouse products a lot of their kits tell you what date they were run in real life. I love their stuff for any era. I don’t know what they still make or if you can find it; I have an old ,2002, Walthers catolog and it lists a lot of Old Timer kits that fit right in your era, I think. If you have trouble finding any you might try Rail Road Hobbies out here in Middleton Idaho. Here is his phone number. (208) 453-9211. Sorry with the locos I don’t know if they can take a decoder, I don’t use DCC, and even compared to other non DCC equipped locos they are a bargan. Also I have only used their rolling stock, but I have my eye an a couple locos, which I have heard are pretty good. Hope this helps[C):-)]
The On30 keeps drawing me, too, Orsonroy. I had even designed a very simple 5ft x 8ft combination tinplate high rail (love those Lionel operating stock and milk cars) and On30 that was all about the standard/narrow guage freight interchange, with some additional On30 switching. The minimum radius and lead lengths would probably have limited me to the Porters and short cars for the On30. Still looked like a lot of fun until I came to design the scenery, and especially the structures. A very small 30 x 40 ft building is 7.5 x 10 inches in O scale. The loading platform between the O and On30 track would have to be at least 3 inches wide by 15 inches long to be remotely realistic. There just wouldn’t be room for reasonably realistic structures.
Locking into HO, I had originally envisioned starting my layout in 1870s and occasionally updating until I got to around 1910, perhaps 1920. But like other posters, I discovered that anything earlier than 1900s would be very difficult, expensive, time-consuming, or all 3. So I settled for turn-of-the-century.
To lock my decision, I’ve spent a fair amount (for me!) on some kits that would work well for a turn-of-the-century operation in HO/HOn3. But as some have said, getting even those small engines to run well may be beyond my limited skills. I worry whether I have the time and skill to come up with something operable and presentable.
My HOn3 roster includes a Keystone Shay (unbuilt with NWSL motorizing kit), a Ken Kidder Porter 0-4-0T, and an MDC 2-8-0 (unbuilt); HO has an MDC Shay (needs backdating), a Mantua General (possibly forward date with Cary Pittsburg boiler), a Model Power 2-8-0 (suitable Brazilian/Colorado Midland prototype but tender drive), AHM Heisler (will eventually be sold as way too modern/big), MDC Climax (needs severe kitbashing/new drive to look reasonable), and a Tyco 4-8-0 kit (also needs kitbashing). Most of these are available on a regular basis on EBay.
Boy…all I can say is that Space Mouse really knows how to write a thread title…everything else has already been addressed.
I too, am planning an 1890s layout, but am in no hurry. I don’t have a final plan yet, don’t have a room, and don’t have the money, so I go to the local RR club and help there and get more experience with wiring, DCC, laying track, scenery, etc.
Keep the faith, SM!!..and learn to “shift” as you discover what’s possible and what’s not.
One thing about all the old photos I see of the Northcoast–even the ones from the early 20th Century certainly LOOK like 1890s photographs! The Northcoast was pretty wild and primitive well into the 20th Century (some would say it is still that way now!) and a lot of the old woodburning equipment was running until the thirties.
Don’t sweat the exact dates. Pu***he date forward but don’t bother pushing the decor forward. Heck, if you go to Arcata now people still seem to think it is 1968, and in Eureka it may as well still be the mid-1950s. I’m sure that your little scale Northcoast inhabitants go around saying “Fie on this newfangled 19-teens stuff! I’m gonna live like it’s still 1888 and like it!”
So the geared switchers are post 1920? The heck with it, there were in fact geared locomotives before 1920, and if those particular ones weren’t made until after 1920, well, I won’t tell if you won’t.
If it makes you feel any better, I am considering (in my long-range plans) having part of my layout set in 1940 (when SN passenger trains still ran through downtown Sacramento) and part in 1952-1966 (when the Belt Line was still operational.) We can work whatever magic we want on our layouts…Don’t sweat the small stuff, and for the large-scale guys, the medium-sized stuff either.
