Well good evening Gentlemen,yet another message in a bottle from a far flung outpost,-have just spent a week pulling down extra shifts and a weekend & more repairing storm damage in addition to the regular gigs,rehearsals,parenting and all the normal thrills & spills of everyday life–just thought Id poke my head round the door and say hello before I stumble off to sleep for 48 hours,night all nick[C=:-)]
Hey Nick!
Certainly hope you are over the rough spots - sounds like you have had quite a time of it lately. We’ve surely and sorely missed ya 'round the bar, but your Permanent Stool is still here as is your staff job, Sir Chief Chef [C=:-)] [tup]
Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Hi, I’ve already posted this by itself and in the TRAINS magazine website under Canadian Passenger Trains. I was urged to post it here too! It’s a summary of my 1981 trip on the Super Continental and Canadian (VIA) to Vancouver and back.
In the early summer of 1981 I took what’s probably my favorite solo trip, to the West Coast and back via VIA. I had just finished graduate school and desperately needed to loaf a little and get the cobwebs out of my head. The dollar was strong, VIA was subsidized, and I had a small cashed-out pension to spend, all of which added up to a good deal. I was able to travel first-class for the first time since I was a child in a sleeper.
Since there was no direct rail service from Chicago to Winnipeg, I decided to get on the westbound Super Continental at Toronto. I started out with a commuter-train ride on the C&NW to Northwestern Station, transferred to Amtrak at Union Station, and headed for Detroit.
There’s something you should know about me: I’m a jinx. Every time I’m in Canada some key component of the economy is on strike. This time it was the tunnel bus to Windsor, so I taxied across the Ambassador Bridge and holed up a couple of hours in a bar prior to catching the train for Toronto. My first-class seat on the Windsor-Toronto train was certainly comfortable, and the waitstaff brought us sandwiches, but unfortunately some engineer must have skidded a wheel because it was a rapid bump-bump-bump all the way. Gave me a headache and a half!
In Toronto, I had about 45 minutes until the Super Continental left, but after just a few minutes’ wait they let us on the train. The man in line behind me learned I was an American when we chatted. I couldn’t understand the woman in front of me, who was talking to friends. The guy behind whispered that she was a “Newfie” which accounted for the brogue. Although VIA had taken over the long-distance CN and CP trains almost three years earlier, the train was
Tom Good evening to you again sir, not only will I not forget about your blue I intend to make you a Canadian or Black label man as well. Speaking of which i think I will partake in a said mentioned black label while I contemplate this evenings activities.
You see Tom you now have an out for at least some of your old stock piled brass rail. It should make a quite effective bit of third rail in the exposed spots. Excellant idea and attention to detail as always.
Good to see that Nick and BK have come back always good to have a few familiar faces around the bar. mind the “dillo” leavings however.
smalling first off a definate hello and thank-you for dropping by with such a wonderfull story [bow] Just the sot of thing we like to see around here. I do hope you stay with us and get to know us. I think that you will like the comraderie and tales from around the bar here. [tup]
Ted You sound right on track with your El should work in quite nicely woth your set up. The Birney’s certainly were the most unpleasant car type to ride on, the later double trucked versions offered a better rode, but the accomadations were generally very spartan. Cheap and effective , though of coarse that is what was intended when they were concieved, many a street railway lived and died by them.
Ted the skeleton car loading and travelling guidelines were not alone in the mention in the book. They would cover just about any type of odd dimentional load and even the school cars and trains.Mountain railroading certainly had it’s challenges ( not that I didn’t say it’s ups and downs,though I soarly wanted too. [swg] )
Yes I am a true loather of the laying and subsiquent wiring of track. to bad you can’t wave a magic wand and it appears. Oh well in every lifew a little rain needs to fall.
Pete Thanks for the url to the Blackpool tramway , I have marked it for later retreival and perusal.I can’t imagine what th
I thought that I would throw a curve ball at you gentlemen tonight. Instead of a classic juice, I will entertain you with an excerpt of… Classic CNR Steam
I will borrow some explinations from Ian Wilson’s Steam at Allandale for the technical help. [tup]
So Classic CNR Steam #1 The Huntsville Subdivision
The Huntsville subdivision ran ( still runs ) through central Ontario in the Muskoka lakes district. It is a 111 mile subdivision running from Huntsville through to it’s Northern terminus of North Bay.And down to it’s southern terminus of Gravenhurst.
The local switching was done three times a week.These originated in North Bay on mon, wed, and fri.laying over in South River, and returning on alternate days.The Southern trains also operated three days a week starting at South River to Gravenhurst same three days a week will the layover at scotia ontario, and returning on alternate days.
The Huntsville switcher This served the Acme planning mills,Cities service oil spur,McColl Frontenac coal shed,( train coal and hating coal ) Supertest/sun oils petrolium spur,the stations frieght shed for lcl service,Anglo-Canadian leather’s two spurs,Forest basket co( gone in 1957 ) and The Muskoka Wood products spur ( charcol plant )
Usually this train was called at 5:15or 5:45 am and was powered by ten wheelers or consolidation type locomotives.
Gravenhurst-South River way frieghts served
South falls-team track
Bracebridge-Sheir lumber,Anglo_Can leather’s coal bin spur,(leather co gone in 1951 ) Imperial oil’s spur,Northern planning mill ( two sidings) the Bracebridge station’s team track and freight shed ( lcl loading )Muskoka trading feed mill
Utterson-team track ( pulp wood & lumberloaded)
Falkenburg -team track ( cities service ) ,Lumber and planning loads and pulpwood also loade
THURSDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS
G’day! Time for some freshly brewed coffee, pastries from The Mentor Village Bakery and our breakfasts! Whatillyahave [?]
Info for the Day:
(1) Today is Fish ‘n Chips Nite!. [dinner] Dinner begins at 5 PM. [tup]
(2) Friday is Pizza Nite! along with Steak ‘n Fries Nite! [dinner] Dinner begins at 5 PM. [tup]
(3) Friday, November 11th is Veteran’s Day (U.S.) and Remembrance Day (Canada & Great Britain). In recognition of all those who have served or are serving, let’s do something special on that day at ”Our” Place.
Find something to Post that is reflective of either of the World Wars that has some connection to the railroads, the war effort or both. Advertisements abound from those times, so it shouldn’t be too difficult.
With ample time to prepare, my hope is that we’ll get good participation! [tup][tup][tup]
INDEX Mondays only!
SUMMARY
Name - Date/Time - (Page#) – Remarks
(1) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 09 Nov 2005, 00:24:32 (158) Inclusive Post!
(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 09 Nov 2005, 01:15:42 (158) [blue]
(3) siberianmo Tom Posted: 09 Nov 2005, 02:07:39 (158) reply to trolleyboy
(4) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 09 Nov 2005, 08:12:48 (158) Inclusive Post!
(5) siberianmo Tom Posted: 09 Nov 2005, 09:35:48 (158) Veterans T
Here’s another Fallen Flag for the gang from Classic American Railroads:
Illinois Terminal (IT) 
Headquarters: St. Louis, MO
Mileage in 1950: 462
Locomotives in 1950:
Steam: 14
Diesel: 18
Electric: 38
Battery Diesel-electric: 2
Battery trolley: 1
Diesel trolley 1
Rolling stock in 1950:
Freight cars: 1,868
Passenger cars: 63
Principal routes in 1950: (Illinois, except as noted)
St. Louis, MO-Peoria
Springfield-Danville
Decatur-Mackinaw Jct. via Bloomington
Alton (Federal)-East St. Louis via Edwardsville
Alton- (Federal)-East St. Louis via Granite City
Venice-Grafton via Mitchell
Troy Jct.-O’Fallon
Passenger trains of note:
Capitol Limited (St. Louis-Peoria)
City of Decatur (St. Louis-Decatur)
Fort Crevecoeur (St. Louis-Peoria)
Illini (St. Louis-Champaign)
Illmo Limited (St. Louis-Peoria
Mound City (St. Louis-Peoria)
Owl (St. Louis-Peoria)
Peoria Flyer (St. Louis-Peoria)
St. Louis Flyer (Peoria-St. Louis)
Sangamon (St. Louis-Peoria
Enjoy! [tup]
Tom [4:-)] [oX)]
Good Morning All: Coffee, please, round for the house, and some $ for the jukebox.
Lots of good postings on the board today. My compliments to all.
Here are a couple of books which may be useful to those who have an interest in the Reading and some of the other “anthracite lines.”
Donald L. Miller and Richard E. Sharpless. The Kingdom of Coal: Work, Enterprise, and Ethnic Communities in the Mine Fields.
Edgar A. Haine. Anthracite Coal.
I’ll post Veterans Day material a little later today
work safe
What a great start for a Thursday morning. Tom, I’ll take a squeeze of grapefruit, Bavarian creme and a splash of Juan Valdez, please. Nickinwestwales [C=:-)], we were beginning to think the West winds had carried you away to some exotic spot like a cruise ship gig. So glad to have you back in the “fold.” Smalling Allen, you surely came along at the right time. The narrative of your rail adventure through the North Country was lucidly clear and nearly like “being there.”[tup] Welcome to “Our” Place and we hope you won’t be a stranger in the future. Is there anything finer than being pampered in “first class” on your favorite means of travel?[^]
Pete indeed, after the war (at first) cheap rubber toys and then plastic kits became available to kids of my generation. Revell, Lindbergh, Airfix and Monogram come to mind but there were others too. HO train kits of “stamped” metal sides, wooden floors/roofs and Zamac die cast ends were available from about 1947 forward. However, decent running trucks (bogies) were a problem until the early 1950s. My first purchase in HO was a John A. English Alco FA-1 which I bought “Lay-Away” (30-60-90 days same as cash). I paid $20. for it at $10. @ month. So in 2 months time, it was “all” mine. More of this later. Thank you for the “Blackpool Transport” URL, those Trams are exquisite and beautifully maintained.[tup] The “double decks” and “open” cars must be very popular in summer.
Passengerfan Al, how on earth did Monon manage to “make a silk purse out of a Sow’s ear?” As I recall the later Army Hospital Cars were smooth sides with passenger vestibules but any resemblance to a streamilined car ends there.[:)] I’ll try to find any pix of same on the net, really curious.
Tom, the Illinois Terminal “Flag” may be obscure to many but I recall seeing their freight rolling stock often on some of my road trips throughout the midwest. As to the change of Amtrak’s “Honcho,” there may be m
G’day All,
First a bit of “in house stuff”: I will be away for most of the morning and afternoon. Cindy will have the bar. Be nice, boyz! Remember, Boris and his pet, Tex the Armadillo will be “guarding” her. [swg]
I see we have had a new visitor and that’s appreciated. More when I get into the acknowledgments. There is an ongoing effort underway by some of the guys to get some “new blood” into the bar ‘n grill. The idea is to be “selective” and I don’t have to tell any of you what that means. We are not at all interested in the frivolous nonsense, nor the immature. Our Posts are full of great info on Classic Trains – real or model along with some adult humor to add a bit of “spice” to the place. Pretty simple approach I’d say.
smalling_60626 Allen Posted: 09 Nov 2005, 20:32:13
Hello Allen – First – thanx for taking me up on the invitation to stop by ”Our” Place. I think you’ll enjoy what we do ‘round here and I know the guys will appreciate conversing with you. I note that you have included some personal info in your Profile – that’s something we appreciate and feel free to “check us out” as well. It’s a great way to get to know one another! [tup]. We do have a couple of guys who aren’t “into” sharing very much of their personal lives – and we respect that. It’s pretty much the way one conducts himself ‘round here that counts with us.
As I’ve indicated on the “other” thread, your Post is precisely what we are all about. My “take” on what you have said and the way you’ve said it, is that there are more stories to come! Let ‘em rip! [tup]
You will find that I am pretty much the “consummate” VIA Rail traveler ‘round here. Been doing so for over 15 years. Of course with family in Nova Scotia, it helps! Anyway, as we get to know one another, you may find the time to review some of my Posts regarding the “Ocean” and the “Canadian” trips I’ve taken. Also have lots of p
G’day All!
PASSENGER TRAIN NOSTALGIA #23
Here’s something to enjoy regarding the Santa Fe (AT&SF) from a 1950 advertisement in my personal collection.
You arrive and depart Down-Town on the Santa Fe – not out in the country
When you’re gong somewhere, you want to be there when you arrive.
Go Santa Fe. You leave on your trip when you plan to leave.
You arrive relaxed, refreshed, at a convenient station right downtown, close to your hotel or office.
Travel Santa Fe and you choose accommodations to suit yourself. You get privacy as you like it. You have room to roam around when you want it. You enjoy wonderful Fred Harvey meals.
You be the judge. Go Santa Fe all the way!
Ride great trains through a great country
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Santa Fe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Enjoy! [tup]
Tom[4:-)][oX)]
CHECK THE MONDAY SUMMARY and INDEX PAGES FOR MORE GREAT NOSTALGIA POSTS!
Good Afternoon: Coffee, please, round for the house, and how about some Big Band items on the jukebox since we are heading into Veterans/Remembrance Day.
I went looking through some wartime era PRR material in the “vault.”
First is a list of PRR-operated sleeping car lines in 1942.
Second is a list of scheduled times of PRR trains on Horseshoe Curve in 1942. This is just the scheduled trains, no main trains, freight, extras, etc.
People sometimes ask if I had a time machine what would I like to see. First is always the parade of NYC trains behind steam along the Hudson. Next is PRR in the 1940s, closely followed by a visit to Buffalo in abt. 1943-1944.
THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD
Pennsylvania Railroad Sleeping Car Service (1942)
Chicago-New York
Harrisburg-Pittsburgh
Chicago-Pittsburgh
St. Louis-Columbus
Chicago-Washington
St. Louis-New York
Chicago-Scranton (via DL&W at Sunbury)
St. Louis-Washington
Pittsburgh-Philadelphia
Indianapolis-New York
Pittsburgh-Atlantic City
Indianapolis-Washington
Chicago-Boston (via New York)
St. Louis-Pittsburgh
Chicago-Cleveland
Louisville-Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh-Boston
Columbus-New York
Pittsburgh-Springfield, MA
Columbus-Washington
Pittsburgh-Baltimore
Cincinnati-New York
Louisville-New York
Birmingham-New York
Cincinnati-Cleveland
Memphis-New York
Pittsburgh-Harrisburg
Washington-Indianapolis
Detroit-Cincinnati
Horseshoe Curve Times (1942)
No. Train For Time
31 Spirit of St. Louis St. Louis 12:02 a.m.
65 Jeffersonian St. Louis 12:08 a.m.
22 Manhattan Limited New York 12:44 a.m.
116-66 Fort
Good Afternoon Tom and the rest of the gang. Time for a CR and a round for the house.
The IT was an interesting road from a passengers point of view as this was all heavy Interurban the routes passenger service was operated over.
After WW II they purchased ight streamlined MU’s to make up three trains. The MU’s were built by St. Louis car and resembled the Electroliners except they were not articulated . Not surprising they resembled the Electroliners since they were both built by St. Louis Car Co.
The three IT trains were compirised of two three car and one two car train.Both the three car and two car trains Featured a shovelnose Cab unit with small baggage compartment and 44 Coach seats numbers 300-302,and a Parlor Observation with a Buffet and 21 Parlor Seats These were numbered and named 350 LOUIS JOLLIET 351 SHADRACH BOND and 352 PIERRE LACLEDE. The two three car trains also had a 56-seat coach MU they were numbered 330 and 331.
The first streamliner to enter service was the two car CITY OF DECATUR on November 7, 1948 operating a daily St. Louis - Decatur round trip of 108.1 miles each way in 3 Hours 57 minutes. The consist was 302 Cab Baggage 40-Revenue Seat Coach and 252 PIERRE LACLEDE 8-Seat Buffet 21-Seat Lounge Observation. The service was discontinued in 1950 and the train became the SANGAMON operating between St. Louis and East Peopia a distance of 171. 5 miles in 4 hours 25 minutes.
The first three car train FORT CREVECOUR entered service February 27, 1949 between St. Louis and Peoria round trip daily wth the following consist.
300 Control Cab Baggage 40 Revenue Seat Coach
330 56-Revenue Seat Coach
350 LOUIS JOLLIET 8-Seat Buffet 21-Seat Parlor Observation
The second three car train MOUND CITY entered service April 10, 1949 between St. Louis and E. Peoria round trip daily. with the following consist.
301 Control Cab Baggage 40-Revenue Seat Coach
331 56-seat Coach
351 SHADRACH BOND 8-Seat Buffet 20- Seat P
G’day!
Okay Cindy I’m back and I thank you for watching the “store”! Doesn’t appear as if you had very many customers today - just one regular. Hope he behaved himself! [swg] What’s that [?] Ohhhhhhhh [censored]
Hey CM3 that’s quite a compilation you put together on my most favorite RR of all time - the PRR/Pennsy! [tup][tup][tup] Sure is nice knowing that the "information age " hasn’t dried up yet. [swg]
Man oh man - I’ll have to really go thru all of that Post of yours - which I will - in order to fully absorb it all. Appreciate your particpation, albeit a day early. But “you done good!”
Music for tomorrow is all “big band” with a few others from Great Britain - sing it , Vera!
(That’s Vera Lynn Welch of East Ham, London, who was extremely popular during WWII. One song comes to mind - “Auf Wiederseh’n Sweetheart” along with perhaps her most popular “war song,” “We Will Meet Again.”)
Here’s a URL for anyone interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Lynn
Hope to see ya soon - but I suspect it won’t be 'til Monday. So enjoy the weekend!
Hey Al Snuck that Post right in, dintcha [?] [swg]
Appreciate the info on the IT [tup] What a sad demise for their passenger operation and equipment. If you can find some photos, it would really fit in quite well with our Sunday Photo Posting Day!. Why not give it a go [?]
Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Hey Tom,I see you there-an Alexanders for yourself and Ill have a Staropramen,-Now,if memory serves,its thursday-therefore,Fish & Chip night is upon us again. Ive had a quick look around the galley and whilst there are one or two small matters which I will be discussing with Boris later,generally,all is well .Thus,tonight Our Place is delighted to offer-Cod & Haddock in batter,Whole-Tail scampi or Surf & Turf (8oz gammon with Tiger Prawns) with fries,coleslaw,salad bowl & breads --OR—Wing of Skate au beurre noisette,baby peppers stuffed with white crab meat on a bed of salad,Cleddau Bass poached in lime,rum & ginger & grilled lemon Sole all served with pommes duchesse,veg de jour and hot breads—dessert trolley available-------spread the word,if you want to eat out-eat at Our Place…bed time,night all,nick[C=:-)]
Yo Nick
Received your Email reply and you pose an interesting sub-plot indeed! I’m all for it! Will require a bit of … let’s talk some more! [swg]
So, Chief Chef [C=:-)] is baaaaaaaack! Now, I wouldn’t put that spread out wherever Tex the Armadillo happens to be. Fish 'n Armadillos, hmmmmmmm.
Almost forgot how tasty a meal we’ve had 'round here on Thursdays … been awhile, eh [?] Glad you’r back! [tup]
Hope you can stop in for our Veterans/Remembrance Day celebration. It’s not a party, although Ted has arranged for three cakes (one for each flag), with no one or nothing jumpin’ or leapin’ out of 'em! [swg]
Later, Mate!
Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Good evening Tom. A fairly slow day but all seems to be well. I’ll have a label and some of Nick’s exquisite left overs.
The It is an interesting choice. Ted and I may have had a juice effect on you after all [swg] The IT had some monster articulated freight motors four truckers, which hefted if I remeber correctly close to 4000hp. they are of coarse known for their interurban cars and Al has nicley explained their last and perhaps best in typical Al flair [bow]
Carlings Black label was likly the first beer I ever had I do still like it today but it’s not as common as it once was. Maybe Mabel decided that she wanted more Royalties [swg]
Im glad you liked the CNR steaam bit. i will not take full credit for it the essence was of coarse hashed out by Ian Wilson, the guru of branch and mainline CNR steam. I figure that I’ll tickle everyones fancy with a bit like this periodically. And shamlessly plug his books for him. Next volume in CNR steam in Northern Ontario is due out early in February it will be released at the Copetown Ontario train show as have his previous 5 books.
Ted I concur with you Pete’s url was womderfull. those are some well loved and cared for trolley’s. Make sure you keep us posted on Wed’s on the never ending saga of the El. As I had said before I think it’s a can’t miss edition to your rendition of KC!
CM3 Thank’s for the start of of the rememberances. Your post goes to,show the absolute importance of the rail infrastructure, in moving people and supplies. Roads on both side of the boarder and in Europe certainly impacted the ends of both world wars.
Rob
Gentlemen. I shall of coarse pop by in the morning but I had been up tonight thinking on what I could possible add to our act of remeberance tomorrow.
I know that many of our regulars have served in some form or have had family serving or served as well. Myself included. Mr Greatgrandfather served in the first Canadain division during WW1, I never got much of a chance to talk to him ( he passed when I was 5 ) From what I understand he would have been in Europe right around the time of the Vimy Ridge Battle ( I do not know if he actually took part in it ). I have sent away to Ottawa for his records and once they arrive they may shed some light. Heather’s Grandfather also was in France in 1917-18 as well as a great uncle or two from both of our families. we were luckey all of them came back to Canada changed but alive.
We can only shake the hands of the survivours and thank them for their selflessness. Most of all we cannot forget, our allies and countrymen’s deeds. We also should not forget those people of all three of our countries that are in harms way today. theirs is still the same struggle the world sought to end in those two terrible decades.
Normally I would watch the CBC coverage of the Ottawa cenataph services but this year Heather and I will go down to the Brantford cenetaph an do some thank-yous in person.
Finally I think we should also remember the other vets,from the other countries who opposed us. Not an easy thing to do in some cases, but these people suffered as well,and their struggles should be remembered as well. if for no other reason then to possibly forgive, and heal decades old wounds.
I’ll leave you with a story. Several years ago I visited a small stone house in the middle of Guelph ontario. Made famous by it’s once owner. Not for any heroics in the mud of French and Belgian trenches, but for his words which helped sum up, and to this day still tug the heart strings of those who hear or read them. Three paragraphs from over
FRIDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS
G’day! Time for some freshly brewed coffee, pastries from The Mentor Village Bakery and our breakfasts! Whatillyahave [?]
A belated [bday] to the U.S. Marine Corps, created by Resolution of the Continental Congress on November 10th, 1775. Semper Fi! [tup][tup][tup]
Info for the Day:
(1) Today, November 11th is Veteran’s Day (U.S.) and Remembrance Day (Canada & Great Britain). In recognition of all those who have served or are serving, we will be Posting information reflective of either of the World Wars that has some connection to the railroads, the war effort or both.
(2) Today is Pizza Nite! along with Steak ‘n Fries Nite! [dinner] Dinner begins at 5 PM. [tup]
(3) Saturday is normally a day when things are rather slow, so we use it to repeat some Posts of interest. We call it, ENCORE! Day. We are open all day, but the responses may be a bit longer in coming that usual. [swg]
(4) Sunday is Photo Posting Day! and the bar is CLOSED until 6 AM Monday
INDEX Mondays only!
SUMMARY
Name - Date/Time - (Page#) – Remarks
(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 10 Nov 2005, 05:35:55 (159) Thursday’s Info & Summary
(2) siberia
”Our” Place Commemoration of Veterans/Remembrance Day 2005
Number 1 of 9:
. . . . . . . . . . more Vital than gold . . . . . . . . . .
All the gold buried in Fort Knox, Ky., is less important to Victory than the rich iron ore deposits of the Mesabi, Cuyuna, and Vermillion ranges of northern Minnesota.
The Mesabi range along contains the world’s largest developed deposits, and much of this ore lies in open pits.
From these pits giant shovels scoop the vital “red dust” into Great Northern cars which dump it a few hours later into the docks in Duluth and Superior, at the Head of the Lakes. There ore boats are swiftly loaded for delivery to the nation’s steel mills.
When the shipping season closed December 5, new mining records had been set on the mining ranges, and Great Northern Railway handled nearly 29,000,000 long tons – a third of the Lake Superior district’s total production.
With the necessity of preserving equipment, Great Northern, between shipping seasons, is reconditioning motive power, cars, trackage and its Allouez docks in Superior making ready for a still bigger job in 1943.
The fabulous iron ore deposits in Minnesota are only part of the wealth contributed to America by the Zone of Plenty – and delivered by this vital artery of transportation.
GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY
ROUTE OF THE EMPIRE BUILDER - BETWEEN THE GREAT LAKES AND THE PACIFIC
IN THE ZONE Of Plenty