Has anyone ever played with the idea of doing an ouside 3rd rail conversion rather than keeping the standard center rail? I was looking at pictures of Frank Ellison’s Delta Lines as he used an outside 3rd rail and I thought it looked pretty neat. Was this once a common setup or did this have to be custom built? I’ve never seen anyone else do it.
I don’t know how common it was but I do know that the people who chose to go this route had to make up/modify their own track. I’ve seen a number of photo’s from layouts back in the late 1930’s to the early 50’s where an outside third rail was used for power. The original 700 E had an optional outside rail shoe for use with scale wheels and an outside third rail.
Outside third rails in O scale have many of the problems that 1:1 third rail operations have when you get to complex switches/crossovers. You will notice that the NYC Grand Central operations uses an outside third rail but that all of the electric locomotives also have small pantographs. This was done to accommodate the probable breaks in continuity that would happen when the locomotive had to cross a double slip or some other large complicated switch. There were sections of overhead third rail above these switches/cross overs. Since subways are actually MU’d they have less problems and less need for overhead bridging.
My Local (UK) commuter line is outside 3rd rail originally installed by the old L&Y Rly subsequently the LMS and then BR now Merseyrail. Sliding shoe pickup nothing overhead. Never seen outside 3R modelled but it would certainly be 3R with a difference
CTT had an article on such a layout not too long ago, within the last year or so. You might check into it.I think it would be a huge amount of work to convert to an outside third rail. It would also seem to be trouble prone.
George
I’ve seen outside thrid rail engines come up on ebay . Its rare but have seen 2 or 3 in the past 4 or 5 years. Seems there always a steamer so I’m thinking lionel or some company did try it for a short period.
Lionel offered the 700 as a kit (700K) and it included support for center rail or outside rail pickup. The “kit” was actually several kits that when combined built up to a complete operating locomotive.
Like Jago’s commuter line, the Chicago Transit Authority ‘El’ also has a third rail.
CTT’s sister publication Model Railroader has some great articles highlighting what might be the most ‘recent’ layouts in our scale using out-side third rail power - John Armstrong’s Canadaigua (sp) Southern.
Outside third rail was used by O Scale modelers back in the 30s to 50s. It is not a substitute for inside third rail. The reason most of the locos were steamers is that back when it was popular, there were very few diesels. I guess you could do it, but I have to ask, why would you want to?
Why would I want to? For the same reason that I’m building a desktop steam engine out of copper and brass plumbing parts. Because I can!
Actually I wasn’t planning on doing it. I was just asking although the idea is appealing only because no one else wants to do it. That in itself is usually reason enough for me. The irony of no one wanting to do it and having many people question it lies in the fact that if someone did do it today, those same people who questioned it would probably think it was actually pretty neat.
I hope you do go ahead and follow this through, its always an inspiration to see people think outside the box and bring a project to fruition.
Some years back I went to a train club open house in Brooklyn and their o guage layout was done with outside 3rd rail. While the track looked more realistic without the center rail, I thought the outside pick up shoe on engine took away from the look (maybe because I am used to the traditional 3 rail set up). They also had trolley with overhead line - seemed like trolley was always coming off & needed to be reset.
It is kind of ironic to have 3 rail people worry about realism in regards to an outside rail. IF I ever did this or even attempted to, it wouldn’t be on a large garage sized layout. It would be on a 3’ X 6-1/2’ hollow core door. I’m already laying my own track and building my own switches based on O-27 rail. Why not just go one step farther?
Even the Reading railroad used the outside third rail for several miles of track, I remember seeing some tracks near Bellevue Road and route 61 on the north side of Reading PA. Conrail took over most of the Reading tracks and did away with the outside third rail.
Lee F.
I’ve found the NMRA standards for outside rail track if anyone is interested in seeing how to do it. I gather that no one really is but I’m just throwing it out there.
OK, throw it a little farther so we can see it[:)]
Thanks!
When I look at old pictures of outside third rail layouts, I think they look more realistic than current highrail layouts with gargraves for example. In my eye, the outer third rail is usually in line with the edge of the ties and so doesn’t distract the eyes as does the center rail. Its just my opinion, others will vary!
I’ll get the outside rail NMRA standards scanned when I can. I’ve got a hurricane barreling down on me right now so I’m trying to get stuff moved and secured.
I believe the small overhead pantograph was there for use in tunnels only, using 3rd rail when running in the open. Pennsy/LIRR did the same in tunnels under the East river
In the real world, “Outside Third Rail” DC power was the system of choice for America’s subways. It was also was used in 1900 for “Heavy Rail” access to New York City, to Penn Station and to Grand Central Terminal. It is sill used today to Grand Central, Penn Station has had “Overhead AC Catenary” added. In the old days, a steam locomotive might very well be moving in “Third Rail” territory outside the city, just look out when you swing down from the cab.
It was in 1896 that the “New York New Haven and Hartford” went to “Center Third Rail” on a Boston branch line extending some 11 1/2 miles. Next to get “Center Third Rail” was the branch lines radiating out of Hartford CT. A total of 32 route miles. The 3 rail commuter power cars looked more like “Intererbans” pulling trailing non-powered cars.
A young J. Lionel Cowen must have felt that “Center Third Rail” was the system of the future. It does live on in “O Gauge”.
He was wrong, the State of Connecticut, in 1905, required the “Center Third Rail” track be fenced or removed and steam powered trains returned to the commuter lines. The New Haven had already turned to a High Voltage AC Catenary system for the New York to Stamford section of their Main Line. (later extended to New Haven and now to Boston)
Center third rail is prototypical in Bordeaux: http://citytransport.info/Bod.htm