Join the discussion on the following article:
Passenger advocates urge governor to push southern Montana rail line
This is a great idea, and I would ride it, but can MT put up ONE BILLION?
Not a problem. These Montana residents expect the federail government to pick up the tab. Montana already receives $1.50 from the feds for each $1 they pay in federal tax.
TRAINS said: “The group hopes to restore passenger service on the former Northern Pacific main line, now operated by Montana Rail Link, through Glendive, Miles City”
The line through Glendive and Miles City is BNSF. MRL lease of track from BNSF begins at Jones Jct., just east of Billings.
Anyone who believes it would take a billion is just buying the current talking points,the tracks are there, Bnsf is probably the best run railroad in the nation and would support it if we could just muster the support from the Amtrak people and our Congressmen.
When it came time for Amtrak to cut one of its two east-west trains in the northwest, it opted to keep the faster of the two, that offered a quicker trip between the midwest and Seattle. The train that was dropped, however, served much more of the population of the Dakotas, Montana, and Idaho. One reason for Amtrak was to make passenger service available to the people along the way, and for over thirty years now that has not been the case in that region. A billion bucks is, of course, out of the question for any of those states, and Amtrak has no place to raise that sum. But I doubt that is really necessary. I’d posit that MRL has its portion of that former Northern Pacific track in far better condition that it was in circa 1980. To route the train through Butte would require reopening the Butte Short Line over Homestake Pass, and it has been out of service for about thirty years. But it is still there, and part of it is used to access the MRL ballast quarry. Amtrak, I’d say, is looking for reasons to do nothing, rather than find a way to make the reopening feasible.
It makes no sense for Amtrak to add any new trains to lines that can only support one train a day. The overhead per passenger is prohibitive. Better to invest in adding trains to existing lines that can support more capacity.
This would certainly make more sense that the huge airline subsides that Montana grants in which these puddle jumper fly with few passengers and many times the planes are empty. Killing of Amtrak’s North Coast Hiawatha was one Jimmy Carter’s "brilliant"moves.
please solve the issues resulting in a chronically late empire builder before adding more service to the south. Amtrak’s inability to address these issues will eventually kill the builder
DONALD L JONES said:
“When it came time for Amtrak to cut one of its two east-west trains in the northwest, it opted to keep the faster of the two, that offered a quicker trip between the midwest and Seattle.”
**
Not the case. In 1979, when the North Coast Hiawatha was discontinued, it was actually faster than the Empire Builder because the Empire Builder took the slower ex-NP route between Spokane and Seattle; the North Coast Hiawatha on the ex-GN route between Spokane and Seattle via Wenatchee enabled it to post a faster Chicago-Seattle running time. The Empire Builder didn’t return to the ex-GN route via Wenatchee until 1981, but this routing sped up the equipment rotation which eventually led to a daily (from tri-weekly) operation.
**
DONALD L JONES said:
“The train that was dropped, however, served much more of the population of the Dakotas, Montana, and Idaho. One reason for Amtrak was to make passenger service available to the people along the way, and for over thirty years now that has not been the case in that region.”
**
Well, it could not be true that “the train dropped served more people in Idaho” because both the Empire Builder and North Coast Hiawatha had but one stop in the state - Sandpoint. Population served in North Dakota was about the same on both routes (with the Empire Builder having a slight edge). The big difference was in Montana. But the Empire Builder in Montana provides the only east-west public transporation (or only public transportation period) for many communities. If the population served was the ultimate defining characteristic of ridership, then the Empire Builder would be the least-ridden long distance train of all, but instead it carriers the most, as has since 2004. It would also not be the case that Shelby, Montana (population 3,000) has greater ridership than Lincoln, NE or Topeka, KS or that Whitefish, Montana has greater ridership than Dallas or that Minot has greater ridership than
$1-billion may well be in the ballpark. When a rail line has been freight-only for a long time and then a proposal is put forth to re-introduce passenger service – even once a day in each direction – typically there is a remarkable amount of work to be done to the physical infrastructure, even if the track is already “good”.
I think the passengers would be there. Greyhound seems to be contracting out bus service in Montana, Airlines are cutting back. You’ve got Missoula, Helena, Bozeman, Livingston, Billings, Miles City, Glendive, Dickinson, Bismarck, Jamestown, Valley City, plus Minnesota cities. I think the ridership would be there. Tracks in good condition. I’d try doing it on a shoestring. Forget the Billion. We used makeshift stations here in WA for the Cascades for years.
Today’s Empire Builder route has much single track running and with the booming Bakken oil play the amount of freight traffic is staggering. I say private/public double track infrastructure additions is the answer and if the politicians could get their heads around railroad “think” the whole region could be a model for the future but doubt it will happen. Right now there is more than enough passenger traffic potential to justify 2-3 Twin City-Williston passenger trains daily but where would they fit?
Just to give people some idea of how big the ballpark is:
In 2007/2008, Florida was lobbying the FEC and Amtrak to reintroduce passenger service on the former. The proposal was, at that time, for two self contained trains per day in either direction between Jacksonville and Miami. There are no stations between the two on the FEC itself, although in theory I guess an exhibition center that was once Jacksonville’s Union Station could be converted back, and the train could transfer to the Tri-Rail tracks at West Palm Beach. The line is, passing loops excepted, mostly single track. And it’s about 450 miles long.
Cost of upgrades, stations, and rolling stock was estimated to be $250M.
Florida/Amtrak were unable to get to get a grant for that (though bizarrely were able to get a $3B grant for a high speed line between Tampa and Orlando, which… uh, well, I like expanding passenger rail, I really do, but uh… look at those locations on a map people… it’s not even as if you couldn’t run a useful passenger service on the CSX line that already joins those locations), and the latest version of the proposal has about half the price tag, but this time only one train per day in either direction, which would be one half of an existing Silver service’s rolling stock, the two halves merging in Jacksonville.
$1B? Possible, it’s certainly not implausable depending on the length of track and the intended frequency of service. It’s also possible it’d cost much less if they aim lower, though like the FEC/Amtrak proposal, I’m not sure they’d be proposing a useful service if they did.
Amtrak’s chronic shortage of rolling stock IS (to say I THINK would be inappropriate in this case) the primary reason why mosr train service cannot be added. The cutback on the Superliner I order in 1979 as part settlement on the Pullman-Standard strike and the failure to exercise an option on the purchase of additional Superliner II cars in 1995 doomed trains like the North Coast Hiawatha, Lone Star, and Floridian in 1979, and did the same likewise for the Pioneer and Desert Wind in 1995. The new Viewliner order IS NOT going to bring any service expansion of new routes or frequencies, let alone for a daily Cardinal at best.