What determined the route choices of PC and Conrail between Indianapolis and East St. Louis? Obviously, Avon Yard was on the NYC line between Indy and Terre Haute, but what led to the downfall of the ex-Big Four line west of T.H.?? Was it because of the joint trackage with MP? The longer route? Online industries?
Any help or information on this area would be greatly appreciated!
Chase Z.
Educated guess here only.
Take a look at the Big Four route via Mattoon vs the PRR via Effingham.
The PRR route from Indy to ESL was 237 miles.
The Big Four route was 249 miles. So, there was 12 extra miles but the PRR route was surely superior with a more direct routing from Terre Haute to St. Louis. The trackage rights on the CEI wouldnt have helped either.
ed
I believe I read in Trains some time ago that one of the reasons to keep the PRR route was that MP was willing to buy the NYC west of Pana.
From Pana to East St. Louis, CEI was the railroad that had trackage rights on the NYC. The line was formerly a double track speedway, but by the time Conrail got it the line was a shell of it’s former self and quickly single tracked it in 1977. Since the Pennsy had a better profile, route and track west of Terre Haute- the rest was considered redundant and Conrail let it begin to waste away. Track speed in the good spots was 30, but most was 10 MPH speed restrictions. Occasionaly Conrail would detour trains off the better Pennsy main to the NYC (and Amtrak as well) via Mattoon. The line is still in over in eastern Indiana to Indy- while the PRR got abandoned there past Terre Haute to Indy (along US 40). Terre Haute-Paris is also still in and used by CSX. The line west of Paris to Mattoon and Pana was abandoned in 1982- this was after CR sold the Pana-St. Louis portion to the Mo Pac. Mo Pac dropped quite alot of money into the line installing new welded rail and ties to improve service- most rail last I looked was still the old MoPac 1982 rail. Bridges on the line all said NEW YORK CENTRAL at one time- although time and rust have erased most of those. Conrail also retained overhead rights from E. St. Louis to Mitchell to access a chunk of the old NYC main up to East Alton and Roxana (abandoned past East Alton in the 1960s after the NYC built the Hillsboro-Mitchell cutoff in 1904)
nordique72:
Thanks for the insites into the lines. I assumed the CEI owned the line from Pana west. My bad. I took a look at a 1953 Official Guide and noted the following comparisons:
NYC Train Knickerbocker:
LV St. Louis 1245pm
Ar Indianapolis 510pm
miles 252, 4:25 elapsed time, average speed 57mph start to stop with stops at Granite City, Mattoon, Terre Haute and Indy
PRR Train City of St. Louis
Lv St. Louis 1240pm
Ar Indy 450pm
miles 240, time 4:10, average speed 58mph with stops at East St Louis, Mattoon, Terre Haute and Indy.
Both lines were speedways. The PRR route allowed Conrail to interchange directly with IC at Effingham, in fact there was a PC/IC train that turned the corner at Effingham. Could not have been done at Mattoon. St. Elmo became important as an interchange with UP, bypassing East St. Louis. I believe Conrail got trackage rights to Salem, Il to run the trains directly to the crew change.
ed
Ed,
I recall at St. Elmo, UP/MP crews brought the CR connection trains from the south, and parked them east of town on a siding between there and Altamont- CR then took them east. CR brought their trains in from the east and dropped them there as well, UP/MP would then van a crew ffrom Salem down to take the train out southbound. One example was the INFW (Indianapolis-Fort Worth) trains that CR ran to St. Elmo, where UP then took them south to Fort Worth- rights into Salem itself were not secured until CSX took over the CR in 1999 because the traffic flow was west to south/north to east. Trains running up to, then back down from Salem was seen as unneccesary until CSX took over. (CSX already had rights into UP’s Salem yard off the old B&O in town- so it was more like an extension of those rights) As I recall UP power ran through to Indianapolis on these trains.
Mattoon was just an over-under with the IC by the depot they shared- but NYC’s main connection with the IC was up at Kankakee- IC/NYC even ran a joint Chicago-Indy passenger train that way.
The note that both lines were speedways is right on- NYC advertised their line with the new cut-off as “Fastest Route to the World’s Fair” which was in St. Louis that year. I’ve seen old movies of NYC streamliners darting through Pana and Shelbyville- quite a change from the later movies of CR units slogging along on the same line through a foot of weeds.
nordique:
Are you from Southern Illinois?
I spent time in the 70’s at Effingham and Mattoon. Lots of great memories.
ed
While Conrail didn’t dump the ex-New York Central line west of Terre Haute until well into the 1980’s, decisions made by Penn Central very shortly after the merger doomed the line to a slow and lingering death. By the time CR took over, the die was already cast - it just took time ( and the Staggers Act ) for events to play out.
The rationale for PC’s decision, more or less in order of importance.
The PRR was mostly double-tracked, with a few single-track segments. The NYC was single track, and would not have had the capacity to handle all the traffic by itself. Thus, the PRR line had to be retained in any case.
Rail condition on the NYC was poor - while the roadbed and ties had been well-maintained, the rail was worn, and a major rail replacement program would have been necessary in the not -too-distant future.
NYC’s yard sitution in the East St. Louis area was horrific, and access from the NYC to the PRR facilities (such as they were) was slow and very expensive to use. I recall reading somewhere that one of the belt lines charged PC something like $8 per car ( in 1970’s dollars ) to operate over a one-mile connection for three trains a day each way running to and from the Missouri Pacific.
PRR route connections to other railroads on the Illinois side of the St. Louis complex were easier to improve than the NYC connections
Very little local business on the NYC west of Paris - and what customers there were could easily be serviced by other carriers, making abandonment less difficult.
$8 per car for one mile is quite a toll!
Futuremodal should read that and comment. I always heard that the St. Louis belt lines had quite a high charge for using their lines. Nothing like a monopoly!
Did PC or Conrail do some directional running on these two lines in the 70’s?
ed
I certainly believe everyone on here, but it is difficult for me to imagine the old NYC Illinois line as a speed way. I have often drove the stretch of road (I think Route 16) between Pana and Charleston, IL. Sadly, I wasn’t around when the NYC line that paralleled it was still operational.
However, the road bed just did not look like a good speedway. The remnants of bridges still remain, and many of them are wood toothpick looking structures. I also think there were two fairly sharp turns just west of Charelston.
Good topic . . .
Gabe
Ed,
I grew up in Edwardsville, which the NYC barely grazed on it’s northwest side (Gard siding)- spent a lot of time watching the UP’s Pana Sub, NS and CNW growing up at Worden and in the immediate vicinity of Edwardsville.
On the main road from Edwardsville to Roxana the Pana Sub. crossed on an overhead bridge that still said “New York Central” well into the late 80s. Never did get a good shot of a UP train on it though.
I can completely see E. St. Louis terminal expenses as a good reason to abandon the NYC yard in Brooklyn- it was next to the old Wabash yard, now also mostly abandoned with some tracks still used by NS for autorack loading. The yard was a good distance from many of the NYC’s main connections in town, and I imagine the terminal usage fees didn’t help. Bottom line the NYC was redundant and falling apart- the PRR was faster, straighter and had better connections, wasn’t a hard choice for CR/PC to make when they were operating the lines. East St. Louis is a whole other monster when talking about rail history in the St. Louis area (ever wonder why all the rail yards were just outside of E. St. Louis? There’s a reason for that!)
Forty years ago, Worden Illinois may have been one of the best places to watch trains in the world. You had the Illinois Terminal, the CNW, Wabash, and New York Central (with CE&I trackage rights) all in a little berb of less than 1000 people.w
Gabe
MP173 - I stand corrected - the charge was $24.75 per car - in 1970! This was one of the reason St. Louis dried up as a gateway over the years.
Roughly, PC ran the TV’s and Amtrak both ways on the ex PRR, while freight went west on the NYC and east on the PRR. Usually one through eastbound traversed the NYC to pick up eastbound blocks at Hillsboro and Paris enroute to Buckeye Yard in Columbus.
$24.75 per car? That was huge in 1970.
I found some of my PC shots of Mattoon this weekend. All were WB’s. There was a yard or small terminal in Mattoon on the PC. I stumbled onto it about 1976 or so…found F units there. Lucky!
Gabe, it was a speedway. The OG doesnt lie. There was an excellent article in Train about 1989, just after David Morgan retired, about an encounter he had just west of Mattoon. It was one of the best written articles by him (there were a lot of great ones, the man had a way with words). He revisited the site many years later to find the line abandoned. He put into words his feelings of aging and the experiences he had. Look away!
ed
I’m glad I had a chance to ride both NYC and Pennsylvania passenger trains between Indy and St Louis back beofre the great carve up took place. They were BOTH speedways! Fairly smooth, too,
I also rode in a cab of an NYC freight between Avon and Mattoon (and back) in 1965 and I don’t recall any speed restrictions (of course that line is still fast).
Gabe,
15 years ago Worden was still a great place to catch trains- UP, BN (on UP rights), CNW, and NS all still ran regular trains through town- today the only line missing now is CNW. I can still recall the old IT pole line dancing it’s way across the corn fields from the south before ducking under the UP (NYC) on a crooked “S” curve- the locals all called the NYC grade seperation overpasses “the tunnels”- IT shared one with a county road. As for population saying it’s less than 1000 is being generous!! More like 300!