From time-to-time I have read articles in the model press, including Model Railroader magazine, or on various forums, about people who have literally “purchased” their entire railroads in one go-- by which I mean they contracted with a layout design and construction firm to do all the planning and all the work. And from the examples I’ve seen they generally look okay to me. They seem well-designed and thought-out, well made and nicely apportioned, fully-scenicked and, frankly, look like they might be a lot of fun to run and operate.
But, curiously, sometimes the reaction to such a layout is negative and, or even downright nasty. I recall one specific example in Model Railroader a few years ago about a fellow who contracted with a firm to design and deliver a layout based on a locomotive servicing facility. He didn’t have much space, liked locomotives, and after consultation it was decided that a service facility would be a good fit for his wishes. I forget offhand why he didn’t want to do it himself, but it doesn’t really matter, whatever the reason, he just elected to “buy” his railroad rather than build it. Well, in the very next issue there were letters from people complaining about how he wasn’t really a model railroader and that it was somehow “cheating” since he had it built and didn’t build it himself.
I remember my own thoughts, more or less, while reading the article showcasing the layout, which was something like "Boy, this is over the top commercialism. Even for Model Railroader-- they’re stooping to new lows… (mumble mumble) Cow-towing to their commercial
And I’d actually like to add to this one more thought-- what would be the difference between contracting out the layout, whether all or in part, and getting a friend or a buddy to help you out with the same thing? Or maybe belonging to a club where the different members all brought with them the various skills and abilities required to do the same thing…
Why is that different? I think most people would agree that it is. Yet those same friends by night, might be out commercially contracting to design and build layouts the very next morning…
It’s been my experience in life that 99.9% of people who make “negative” comments about another person or that person’s possessions are generally “small minded” and jealous.
There are many reasons for this reaction but mostly it’s just jealousy and small minds. Some people just can’t appreciate anything without tearing down to their level first.
To those people I say the door works both ways, use it. I don’t have enough time let to deal with these types.
I don’t care if your layout was “off the shelf” or built over 50 years, I can appreciate either one equally. The simple fact is if the person likes trains we already have something in common so let’s build on that.
As my late Mother used to say, “If you can’t say anything nice why not just shut your big stupid mouth so the rest of us can enjoy it”. And I have to agree with her 100%!!
Everybody has an “opinion”, problem is almost all people don’t care about their opinions or care to hear it, especially if it’s “negative”.
That’s my opinion!!! (Ha Ha Ha!!)
Mark
P.S. You don’t have to care about “my” opinion either, it’s OK with me…
Actually your opinion is good and makes sense. But I’m not sure if I agree with you about the “small-minded” part, though I certainly do agree on the “we have model trains in common, let’s build on that!”
I sincerely hope it doesn’t go like that-- I’m not trying to make a distinction between who is and isn’t a model railroader–and in fact I explicitly said that in my original post.
But what I am interested in is why its even an issue?
Whether or not a layout is professionally built becomes an issue because of our natural competitiveness. Which is the same reason for the endless arguments over who is or is not a “real” model railroader. Our natural competiveness gets upset when we perceive the playing field is not leveled.
As an analogy, at various points in my life I have raced sailboats. When I was learning to sail competitively in college, I would get my clock cleaned every weekend by the All-Americans and similar caliber competitors. By the time I graduated, I had improved to the point where I could hold my own, and even win occasionally against the normal amateur weekend racer.
I ended up entered in international competition against Olympic-caliber sailors, and again got my clock cleaned - despite their best and truly friendly attempts to help me improve. For a long time, I used the excuse of their being full-time sailors on their Olympic teams as my excuse for losing. Then I came to realize that I just wasn’t as good as they were, and likely never would be even if I had all the “advantages” I ascribed to them.
As “professional” sailors - sailmakers and boat and gear manufacturers - came to dominate the formerly amateur racing circuits, I heard the same, “It’s not fair refrain…” I used to spout. The reality is that the very best sailors are going to gravitate to jobs that allow them to spend more time sailing, rather than holding a related job creating the outstanding sailor.
So it is with professionals building model railroads. I strongly suspect that their excellent modeling railroading skills lead them to be hobby-related professionals, not the other way around. When I remember that being a professional did not make the modeler, I come to view the professional work and the professional did the work in a much more positive light.
It doesn’t bother me weather or not a certain layout was professionally built, or every structure was stracthbuilt. If the layout is a great layout, then the layout is a great layout. period.
We’re all here for one common interest, model railroading.
However in my opinion, you get the more satisfaction of building your own model railroad. Look back and say “hey, I built this entire thing by myself”.
I suspect that these professional layout building places exist because of the new generation of model railroaders want instant satisfaction. (Like the whole RTR argument thing.) I buy alot of RTRs, so I guess I somewhat fall into that catagory, but only because I’m new to the hobby and would rather spend my time on building the layout then to try to build a freight car good enough to look like or better than the RTR cars available.
Building a layout takes alot of money, and man hours. Some people just don’t have enough time, and thus resort to having a professional build it.
Here’s my new deck I just built. Am I a Professional deck builder or just a home owner who built a new deck, or both? You tell me.
Things to consider.
The deck is way better than the original one the professional builder built, when they built the house. Just because something is done by a professional doesn’t mean it’s better or worse.
When sitting on it having a [B] with my friends, would the [B] taste any different if the deck was built by a pro me or an amature me?
I am quite capable of painting my own house and I do a good job, but I hate painting so much I almost always hire a painter. Is my home less enjoyable because I didn’t paint it myself?
The same is with our hobby. It does not matter if you do it all yourself or some or none of it. Enjoy whatever parts you like about it and get someone else to help you with the rest. Who cares.
Finally you’ve all seen this early photo of my layout. (someday I’ll take an updated one) To those vary few that have scoffed at my acres of foam (yes I agree it is a lot of foam) without knowing the direction, reason or end result I am looking for. Why do you comment at all? I have had layouts I’ve built the more “traditional” way in the past
Whether or not a layout is professionally built becomes an issue because of our natural competitiveness. Which is the same reason for the endless arguments over who is or is not a “real” model railroader. Our natural competiveness gets upset when we perceive the playing field is not leveled.
As an analogy, at various points in my life I have raced sailboats. When I was learning to sail competitively in college, I would get my clock cleaned every weekend by the All-Americans and similar caliber competitors. By the time I graduated, I had improved to the point where I could hold my own, and even win occasionally against the normal amateur weekend racer.
I ended up entered in international competition against Olympic-caliber sailors, and again got my clock cleaned - despite their best and truly friendly attempts to help me improve. For a long time, I used the excuse of their being full-time sailors on their Olympic teams as my excuse for losing. Then I came to realize that I just wasn’t as good as they were, and likely never would be even if I had all the “advantages” I ascribed to them.
As “professional” sailors - sailmakers and boat and gear manufacturers - came to dominate the formerly amateur racing circuits, I heard the same, “It’s not fair refrain…” I used to spout. The reality is that the very best sailors are going to gravitate to jobs that allow them to spend more time sailing, rather than holding a related job creating the outstanding sailor.
So it is with professionals building model railroads. I strongly suspect that their excellent modeling railroading skills lead them to be hobby-related professionals, not the other way around. When I remember that being a professional did not make the modeler, I come to view the professional work and the professional did the work in a much more positive light.
The term Model Railroader started from the word Modeler, which to me means; Modeling something or to build something in miniature. Hence, when we say Model Railroad, we mean a Railroad built in miniature.
Now when someone says they are a Model Railroader, that means to me that they have, or are in the process of, building a model of a Railroad, or some items for a Model Railroad, whether or not they have help in the constructing of it or them. On the other hand, if someone says to me, I have a Model Railroad, that means they own one, but they may not have built it.
So, in my opinion, if someone says “I am a Model Railroader” and I found out they purchased it completed, I have just lost all respect for them and the work they now claim as their own. Even if they don’t claim it as their own work, they are not a Model Railroader to me.
As for the materials used, I would consider myself a modeler even if I build kits. The fact remains that “I” put it together. Most of us started out building plastic kits, then went on to wood kits. Taking it a step further, Scratch building means that you built it from ready available materials. I don’t know what you would call it if you went out and cut the trees down to make your own wood to build the layout structure from.
But in the main, a person that contracts to have a Model Railroad built for them, is not a Model Railroader, in my opinion. Of course there is an exception to every rule, so my exception would be if they scratch built all of their rolling stock except the locomotives, I would consider them a Model Railroader.
The question is not about who is or isn’t a model railroader, its how you feel / your opinion of commercially contracted layouts / consulting with layout design and construction professionals to design all or part of a layout.
Seems to me the issue is whether someone is falsely stating, or allowing people to believe, that they played a greater role in the design and building than they actually did.
A well known, and now deceased, model railroader here in Milwaukee was on so many blood thinners due to his heart condition that he was literally forbidden by his doctor from holding a knife or saw in his hands. If he cut himself, as he did from time to time with an errant screwdriver while replacing trucks on a freight car or prying open a Kadee coupler box, it was an immediate, and possibly overnight, trip to the ER. His layouts were for the most part custom designed and entirely custom built and wired. His involvement (apart from paying for it all and making clear exactly what he wanted) was in some of the super detailing such as figures, vehicles, and some scenery. He never made a false claim about his involvement and in fact had plaques placed honoring the guys who did the work. On the other hand he did the design and programming for a computerized car forwarding system that a number of local modelers use, and his layout hosted multiple operating sessions every week for years. Very likely one of the heaviest used layouts ever. The ability of the large layout to handle that sheer intensity of operation was entirely his doing. So he did play a very active and direct role in the operation of the layout he had devoted years and resources into calling into being.
He regarded himself as a model railroader. As to whether he was a modeler, he would point to the awards his structures had won at NMRA divisional meets before the implications of his illness prevented any more building.
As far as the friends vs. commercial construction.
In my living room is a rocking chair. It belonged to my wife’s grandmother. It fell into disrepair. My wife’s uncle a very skilled woodworker build replacement pieces for the rotted portions, installed them and refinished the whole chair to the same finish and recovered the seat with leather. Then he gave it to my wife.
Now I could buy a more modern looking chair that would probably be more structurally sound and have a tighter seat.
The difference between a layout built by friends and one commercially built is the difference between my wife’s rocking chair and the one I could buy in a store.
So in my original post is a list of different places to draw the line, most of which have at different points in time been where the “negative connotation” kicks in. The “negative connotation” is always “who is not a Real Model Railroader”.
I thought my position was clear - see 42 above.
To put it differently: If you think you are a model railroader, you are.
Or: This is a hobby, do the fun parts, buy as much of the rest as you can afford, do as much of the rest you can’t buy as is necessary so you can do the fun parts. BTW you get to pick which is which - at least for you.
For me the “negative connotation” never emerges
Personally, I stop to enjoy all the layouts at train shows including the ones for sale. And all the ones in MR and CTT and RMC and the NMRA Bulletin (or whatever it’s name is this month).
John, while this might prove to be an interesting and enlightening subject for discussion were it posed to members of one of the forums that caters more to serious hobbyist-modelers, here the opinions expressed will be almost totally predictable and wishy-washy. Let’s be honest and recognize that a majority of folks here are not modelers in the traditional sense of our hobby, but rather increasingly just buyers of model railroad items and equipment. So of course you are going to get the, “Everyone’s a model railroader” response, no matter what, simply because if it were any other way a lot of folks would then have to regard themselves as outsiders.
Addressing your questions from an actual modeler’s viewpoint, a person who purchases a layout totally fabricated by someone else may be regarded as a miniature train operator, or layout owner, but by no stretch of the imagination any sort of model railroader. And in that situation, I could point out (and have once or twice) a big name/ famous layout “hobbyist”, or two, who appear in the magazines, that indeed do not do any of their own work on their “famous” layouts, but rather farm it out to others. To me, unless such a situation is made known from the outset, I regard them basically as frauds.
However, the question of having someone else design your layout, but you do all the construction and modeling work, is quite something else. A considerable part of this hobby has always centered around using other people’s ideas and I dare say the major of model railroaders have utilized entire, partial, or adapted trackplans and concepts (structure. scenery, etc. plans and ideas as well) created by someone else, on their layouts. So in that situation, the hobbyist would still definitely be classed as a “model railroader”.
Likewise, the aspect of having your friends, or club-mates, assist you in layout constr
Names and definitions aside, my opinion of some who who buys a turn-key model railroad is unimportant for several reasons:
No mater what they call themselves, they are not in the same hobby as me.
Dispite the cries of “we are all modelers” or the “go alone to get alone” crowd, I am not likely to have much in common with such a person.
And, such a person is unlikely to be very concerned with my opinion of him or his layout, just as I would have little or no interest in his opinion of my modeling efforts.
CNJ831 is right on about such layouts being presented in the press without full disclosure - it is fraud.
If it is disclosed, my admiration, or criticism, goes to the builder - about the owner, I am largely indifferent.
