I am designing a portable, 4 x 8 N scale layout to be taken to various events. Everything on the layout (with the exception of buildings) must be fastened down enough so that, when the layout is turned on its side, nothing will fall off. Will scenic cement be strong enough to do the job, or do I need something stronger?
I’m not sure what scenic cement is, but white glue mixed with water should work for most things like turf and ballast. The thing you want to watch for is that the material being glued is saturated with glue when you apply it. A little detergent helps the glue mix soak in. When dry take a vacuum to the area. Everything left should be good to go. Eventually the vibration of transporting the layout may dislodge small bits, so you may have to do a little repair between events.
Hot glue is good for things like trees, but beware the strings if you choose to use it.
Is the layout just one big piece, or are there sections?
Scenic Cement is the stuff Woodland Scenics sells to glue down stuff.
Take it from an Ntrak’er: it is NOT strong enough to use on a portable layout! Use white glue thinned 50/50 with rubbing alcohol, and use plenty of it (I use two layers for all scenery, and really soak my ballast). For almost everything else, full strength white glue is fine.
The layout is in one piece.
Is normal white glue really stronger than scenic cement or other products sold on the market? That’s kind of surprising.
What do you mean by soaking ballast? Can’t I just spread the stuff on the tracks and sand the rails when its dry?
I once used a jug of the “ready to use” WS scenic cement and then, when the scenery, ballast, and anythihg else either crumbled or just came loose, re-did it using a 1:3 mixture of latex matte varnish (Liquidtex or similar). I’d never waste money on the pre-packaged, pre-mixed stuff. Instead, send me your spare money… A similar ratio mixture of H20 and while glue will also work… I put a drop or two of dish detergent in the matte medium/white glue mixture also. In each case, mist the ballast or scenery well with wet water or rubbing alcohol, drrbble on the adhesive, leave it alone over night and enjoy well-anchored scenery the next morning with no adhesive showing. If anything does come loose, a drop of white glue on the offending part followed by misting with alcohol/wet water will set it for good.
All I use now is the home-made adhesive. No problems.
Jus
By “soaking” is meant, get the ballast/scenery in place, thoroughly wet it with wet water or alcohol by misting, and glue away. No need to use pails, buckets, wa***ubs for “soaking”.
A 4 x 8 foot layout is not something I would call portable…
Why not make it in sections?
Greetings form the Netherlands
Marc Immeker
Maybe he owns a giant pickup truck with an 8-foot bed to cart it around–indeed, 4x8 is pretty unwieldy in a single piece. By making a layout in sections you can get it through doors and can worry less about having to turn it sideways–or needing a full-sized truck to cart it around.
On my corner module I used thinned white glue to attach the ground foam. It was sturdy enough that I could put it in the back of my pick up truck and drive on the interstate at 75 mph (speed limit in NE) without anything blowing off.
Dave H.
A couple of things:
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I am working in a place that is not well ventilated. When doing a white glue/alcohol 50/50 mixture, should I wear a mask or breathing device?
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Peterhjaynes, are you saying put the white glue right on top of the ballast? Won’t that show when dry?
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The layout’s large size is beginning to scare me now. Right now, I am looking at traveling with the layout in the back of our Venture (van), but this only works if we take all of the back seats out and tilt it slightly when it’s in. This is my first layout, and I’m scared to try and make it in modules. It wouldn’t save that much space, anyway, would it? Another alternative that I am looking at is to make it 4 X 7 instead and hauling it in the back of our SUV. Any suggestions here?
If you’re concerned about breathing alcohol fumes, then use a 50/50 mix of white blue and water with a few drops of dish detergent added. I know that many people feel that alcohol is a superior thinner, and this may be so, but I am bothered by alcohol fumes, so can’t use it. I’ve never had problems with the water/glue/detergent mixture holding well. First, you soak the ballast with a misting of water with a few drops of dish detergent in it. Start off with spraying it kind of up in the air so it falls like a gentle rain and doesn’t disturb the dry ballast. The trick is to soak the ballast right to the bottom. Once the ballast is wet, you can spray directly. I use an old white glue bottle to dispense the glue/water/detergent mix and it soaks right in to the pre-wetted ballast. I put on lots of it. The white glue will dry clear and you won’t see it at all.
In my humble opinion, you’d be better off splitting your layout into two pieces. Manhandling that big a layout in and out of a truck or van is bound do damage it, not to mention all the help you’ll need. I’ve got a sectional layout and I’m using the same method that the N Trak folks use. I end the tracks a precise distance from the edges where the sections will join and bridge the gap with a piece of short straight Atlas track. The N Trak folks have been moving layout modules all over the country for years with no problems. You might want to check out their web site at www.ntrak.org for ideas.
I have been using the white woodworking glue mixes ever since I became aware of it 40 years ago. I still have one small section of a layout from that era and the track hasn’t moved even though the foam underlay crumbles if you rub it. The only problem with the ground cover is fading but it is still there just looks as though a good rainfall would put some green into it.
As to the mobility of the layout. I would caution against anything as large as 8 x 4. I have a 6 x 3 N scale layout hanging from my garage beams which I used to take to meets but it doesn’t move anymore and probably won’t before I give it to someone. If you want 8 x 3 I would suggest it be made in four pieces each 4 x 2 with layout I=I that way the length of each section is generally in line with the track run and most rail crossings can be square to the joins.
Happy modelling,
Ian Henderson
Modelling the Santa Fe from afar Downunder
Well, I still think that I’m going to go with a 4X7 layout because it can fit in our van and it eliminates those ugly section connection lines. Thanks for all of the ballasting ideas, though. This has really helped.
One last suggestion if you’re not already committed to layout size is to consider using a hollow core wood door. They’re a standard 6’-8" long, but come in widths up to 36". They’re very strong and stiff, but very light. It’s a smaller layout than 4’x 7’, but you avoid bracing and it would be much easier to transport.
Regards
Ed
I very strongly agree with egmurphy about using a hollow core door for a portable layout table. I move fairly frequently and my layouts move with me. After building a couple of 3x8 and 4x8 layout tables, which always flexed, cracked, and were heavy and unattractive to boot, I tried the door idea based on a MR article.
I first built an along the wall bookcase for my apartment, 80" long by 36" high, out of 1x12 lumber. Didn’t look fantastic but was presentable and servicable
The bookcase is a good place to store buildings, train stuff, etc. I did glue some of the buildings to the layout with construction cement - use a lot and they’ll never come off.
I then mounted the door to the bookcase with a couple of standard interior door hinges (you can pull the hinge pins to separate the two for moving, etc) on the top leading edge of the bookcase. Now the door folds down to a flat 36" high table. On the back/bottom edge of the door,over the hinges, I mounted a 1x12x80 as a backdrop. I completely covered the layout “table” with a 2" thick piece of building insulation, which allows me to carve rivers, causeways, etc up to 2" deep. I used the same foam for hills, etc up to 10" tall. The entire layout weighs about 30 lb. For storage I fold the door up against the wall - it is painted “wall color” and has a nice, plastic framed mountain poster centered and mounted to it with mirror mounts. There are a couple of heay duty galvanizd hardwareware handles mounted on the leading edge of the door for carrying. etc.
If you built a moveable layout like this (instead of framed plywood) it would be lighter, better looking, cheaper, have no flex, and be easier to set up on a couple of sawhorses. If you want a bigger layout you can use two doors back to back along the long axis (for the back side of each door clamp two pieces of 80" x whatever height masonite together, then cut them simultaneously with a jig saw - screw one to the back edge of each door and you’ll have a match
A hollow core door should work fine but it can be long. If you still want a 4x8 foot layout try sections of 2x4 with integral backdrop. these sections are than l-shape and one can be bolted up side down to the other. In this way the sections protect each other. If you fear problems with the right angles of the sections, get a copy of the book Small, smart & practical track plands by Iain Rice, published by Kalmbach books (ISBN 0-89024-416-2). In the book you will find ideas about disguising the joints on the sections with a method Iain calls jigsaw scenery (basically, loose scenery pieces with irregular lines along roads or hedges to disguise the square joints). Iain also published An approach to model railway layout design, finescale in small places (Wild Swan publications ISBN 0-906867-85-1) with more information about jigsaw scenry pieces.
Good luck with your layout.
Marc Immeker
My layout is made up of 4 sections, with no “ugly joints.” I doubt if you can find them unless you look at the benchwork. Each module is framed with 1"x4" ash, with crossbraces every 12". I clamp the ends together, drill two 1" holes through both ends and glue 1" dowels to one side of the joint. The other side slips over the dowels for perfect alignment. Then, I drill two 3/8" holes for short bolts with wing nuts to hold the modules together. I can lift the entire layout from either end without any bowing or separation. When installing scenery, a strip of waxed paper between the joints keeps the Sculptamold from bonding together for easier separation when moving. The trackwork is laid out so that a short section of Atlas snap track bridges the joint. Radio Shack terminal blocks under the table let me separate the electrical connections.
I would go with the hollow core door also, but if you’re absolutely set on the idea of a 4x8 (or 4x7), you can build your own “hollow core” structure, or have somebody else do it for you. Its called torsion box construction, and by using it you can avoid the twisting problem that will plague a standard built layout. A decent cabinetmaker or woodworker should be able to build a 4x8 torsion box, using 1/8" or 1/4" plywood for the skin. The total weight of construction like this would be less than a 3/4" sheet of 4x8 plywood.
Thanks, these ideas are great. I apologize to the moderators if these boards disallow posting to threads posted more than 1 month ago, but I really wanted to ask this and didn’t want to start a new thread. This thread isn’t that much more than a month old, anyway.
Here’s the plan I just threw together: I will build my 4 x 8 (almost sure on this measure now) layout in two 2 x 4 sections, probably using Bikerdad’s ideas. When I get my modules to their location, I will sprinkle on ground cover over the connection to hide it. After the show, I will use a dustbuster or something to clean up the loose stuff. My question is this: If I use an adhesive mixture that is 50/50 Glue + Alcohol or Water, will it be strong enough to resist my dustbuster, so that only the ground cover used to hide the joint will be removed?
That would be four 2x4 sections, just two 2 x 4 sections will either give you a 4 x 4 layout or a 2 x 8 layout.