I’ve just seen the news story about Portland, Oregon, and its public transport:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4777801.stm
Any citizens of Portland on this forum? If so, do you think this story is an accurate reflection of how things are?
Speaking as a PDXer of a long time ago, yes, there is a “community” spirit to Portland and its public transportation system. There seems to be a solid bloc of support for such transportation as it exists now, and also into the future. I also read that there is system of “free” bicycle rentals that can be picked up and dropped off at random locations within the city. The downtown area of Portland has an area called “Fareless Square” where you can ride the buses, light-rail cars and so on for free. All of that said, there is an equally determined, relatively smaller fraction of citizens who disdain public transportation and most government services, for that matter who live further away from the downtown area and tried about 35 years ago (unsuccessfully) to get the Mt. Hood Freeway approved and are looking to build a Westside Bypass through some prime farmland and scenic wildlife areas (a definite taboo amongst Portlanders closer in). It should also be noted that MAX has tried to extend across the Columbia River into Vancouver, Washington, and was pretty much flat turned down. This legacy can be traced back to Tom McCall and also, to a somewhat lesser extent, former Transportation Secretary under Carter, Neil Goldschmidt (who has since shifted fairly hard to the right politically, and has been brought down by a personal scandal). So, in a nutshell, yes, it’s true, so much so that it has inspired an equally determined opposition. The “community” spirit is still carrying the day.
Riprap
Just one other note, since I was under a time limit before: Oregon, the state PDX is in, has a classic rural/urban divide going politically. PDX is in Western Oregon, and Eastern Oregonians don’t like the idea of state money going to a city-based transit project. You’d get the same basic reaction amongst Eastern Washingtonians for any Seattle-based transit, or upstate New Yorkers for any Manhattan transit. In Eastern Oregon’s case, I have some sympathy for their position since the UP-based Pioneer passenger train was discontinued some years ago due to low ridership, so they have no corresponding “train” service to speak of…
Riprap
Frankly I think the rest of America could learn a lot from Portland’s example.
Portland is a freak show of humanity and political correctness. One time I stayed at the Hilton there, and they didn’t even offer the Fox News Network! (Apparently, certain people complained about the evil FNN being on the television, at least that’s what the hotel manager told me.) I couldn’t wait to get back on the saner side of the River.
I’ll second the “America could learn a lot from Portland’s example”. They have a very nice public transportation system. I think a lot (make that almost every city) places priority on the car first and public transporation second/supporting role. In Portland (downtown) I think that the opposite is true. The city actually tore up an expressway that was next to the Willamete River @25 years ago and turned it into a park. It’s a neat concept - take way auto options, build a world public transportation system and let people ride for free downtown. Guess what? They use it.
CC
as a semi-frequent traveler to PDX - I really appreciate the light rail line between the airport and downtown.
dd
Tulyar/all - it’s been seven years since I last visited Portland but it left a lasting, favorable impression on me.
Portland has a thriving, economically healthy and diverse “downtown” area (bounded by the Fareless Square) which makes it ideal for public transportation. Buses and Light Rail operated to good frequencies even off peak.
Incidentally - I also found it an incredibly friendly and sociable city, with a very good choice of “non-chain” cuisine and the biggest second hand bookstore I’ve ever seen! I did’nt stay in my hotel room bemoaning the lack of TV choice…
You guys are forgetting that Portland itself is immersed with freeways within it’s downtown core. Which do you think gets more use, the light rail or the freeways?
That was my impression of Portland too (although it’s been a while since I was there - it was during the last days of the ‘Pioneer’).
Very pleasant downtown area, and public transport well used - by most people too, not just the ‘lower echelons’ of society.
This was in marked contrast to earlier in the same trip when (en-route from LAX to LAUPT) I travelled on the LA Metro Blue Line and wondered if I was the only person on the train - including the travelling beggar who was ‘working’ the passengers - who didn’t speak Spanish as their native language…well used system again but a very different atmosphere to Portland.
Tony
Freeways get lots of use. Its a good thing the rails take 60 million or whatever cars away because there wouldn’t be room for them all. The problem is there are only 3 interstate arteries to handle all the traffic, and there are thousands of people that commute from south and north to work in PDX. Accidents are frequent and the traffic is pretty bad. I’ve never lived near any other major city so I don’t have a basis for comparison, but it isn’t nearly as bad as trying to get out of seattle during rush hour.
I live in Salem, which is only 40 miles south of portland. Riding the light rail is a real pleasure as it passes by just about any point of interest in portland. They also have nice streetcars/trolleys that stay within the confines of the downtown areas.
I’d say that virtually every city in the Western world is dominated by private cars, trucks and associated freeways, even those with the most comprehensive public transportation systems.
The point here, I think, is that Portland has made a considered and coherent effort to reduce some of the private traffic by creating a transportation system that is attractive and relevant to demand.
The car and the freeway will never be eradicated or even tamed - no matter what charges are imposed directly or indirectly upon the motorist - but a hallmark of responsible governance (either local or national) is to make a significant commitment toward the provision of a viable alternative.
All the better if this alternative is embraced by the populace. Personal experience, and the article that Tulyar quotes, suggest that the a significant number of Portland citizens have a positive attitude towards “their” system.
Question: When you visit Portland coming up from Salem, what is your primary purpose? Shopping, touring, visiting relatives/friends? How often do you visit Portland? I can see where the light rail system may favor a semi-frequent visitor to the city if (1) time is not of the essence and (2) you’re not having to lug around packages etc. I can’t see it working for errands or major shopping sprees, and certainly not if you’re lugging kids around.
Sure, if it was Portland that had paid for it all, and not the citizens of the State.
BTW - on a more positive note, a railfan’s visit to Portland is not complete unless you take a tour of the Gunderson railcar plant. Watching a well car or AutoMax being built from the ground up is fascinating. Far more interesting than that light rail system.
OK, I’ll jump in: Future Modal, it’s only my two cents, but I think you’re setting up something of a false choice btw the light-rail cars and the Gunderson railcar plant. As a consummate railfan, both venues “fascinate” me: as a consumer of passenger rail service, using a light-rail train makes me feel good. As an aficionado of RR boxcars (the more colorful, the better), being able to tour a railcar plant is nice too. Is there any reason I can’t do both?
A couple of points to respond to the city-state financing: Yes, MAX did require state funding. So did the interstate freeways, that go to almost all of the citizens of the state. I’d guess that the total money spent on Oregon’s freeways far outweigh the total money spent on MAX. From the railfan’s perspective, the money and enforcement power of the federal govt. made most of the transcontinental RR system possible. I’d imagine there were several citizens of that time who didn’t wish for their money to be spent in that way, either. One thing that Neil Goldschmidt did when he became governor of Oregon was to set up county commissions to decide how they best wanted to spend the revenues of the state, or to identify vehicles for economic growth, and then he would find/give the money to support those decisions. Goldschmidt was also the person mostly responsible for Tri-Met, the agency that now operates the MAX lines. The county commissions weren’t perfect, but they were an attempt to further democratize the spending of state money.
I keep up with letters-to-the-editor in PDX newspapers, and there was a virtual food fight recently. A loyal MAX rider wrote in that he felt quite happy (in a kind of condescending way) when he was riding on the MAX train and saw all the traffic backed up on the freeways. Two days later an upset freeway driver wrote in to complain that his tax dollars made it possible for the first letter writer to ride in the MAX train. Two days after
Depends on your definition of sanity (and I’d side with the Portlanders), but I agree that banning TV channels in hotel rooms is going a bit far.
And what’s wrong with showing humanity anyway ?
Tony
[quote user=“riprap”]
OK, I’ll jump in: Future Modal, it’s only my two cents, but I think you’re setting up something of a false choice btw the light-rail cars and the Gunderson railcar plant. As a consummate railfan, both venues “fascinate” me: as a consumer of passenger rail service, using a light-rail train makes me feel good. As an aficionado of RR boxcars (the more colorful, the better), being able to tour a railcar plant is nice too. Is there any reason I can’t do both?
A couple of points to respond to the city-state financing: Yes, MAX did require state funding. So did the interstate freeways, that go to almost all of the citizens of the state. I’d guess that the total money spent on Oregon’s freeways far outweigh the total money spent on MAX. From the railfan’s perspective, the money and enforcement power of the federal govt. made most of the transcontinental RR system possible. I’d imagine there were several citizens of that time who didn’t wish for their money to be spent in that way, either. One thing that Neil Goldschmidt did when he became governor of Oregon was to set up county commissions to decide how they best wanted to spend the revenues of the state, or to identify vehicles for economic growth, and then he would find/give the money to support those decisions. Goldschmidt was also the person mostly responsible for Tri-Met, the agency that now operates the MAX lines. The county commissions weren’t perfect, but they were an attempt to further democratize the spending of state money.
I keep up with letters-to-the-editor in PDX newspapers, and there was a virtual food fight recently. A loyal MAX rider wrote in that he felt quite happy (in a kind of condescending way) when he was riding on the MAX train and saw all the traffic backed up on the freeways. Two days later an upset freeway driver wrote in to complain that his tax dollars made it possible for the first letter writer to ride in the MAX trai
Thanks for writing back, FM.
No, light rail (or any other system) is not perfect. That wasn’t my point. Which system serves the greatest good for the greatest number? To some degree, the “economic” choice is clouded (pardon the pun) by not including the pollution impact of the automobile. Folks in LA would tell you that, some 6-8 years ago, they could count the number of smog-free days per year on a single hand. Was mass transit solely responsible for the decrease in pollution? Of course not. But I think it helped. (and yes, most Angelenos still don’t use it as much as they could or should!)
I don’t believe it’s possible to ride directly to Gunderson’s factory on light rail. You could do it (or come functionally close) with a light rail/bus transfer. MAX has built a line out to Hillsboro, and one up to North Portland. We’re a car culture, and America is a large country. I realize I’m probably fighting an uphill battle. But as pollution worsens (and it is) and gas becomes more expensive (and it is), the economic tradeoff will become less pronounced, and light rail will look better. I’m happy for your friend in Hillsboro. The first MAX construction project was unique in that it was the first one to do two things: expand the existing freeway (the Banfield) while, at the same time, putting in the new light-rail system. If your friend in Hillsboro supports fwys, he’d have supported the first MAX construction project. Since I don’t have a family, I can’t speak directly to the experience of being together with them. I was out in E. Multnomah County, and I used the MAX line to commute to PSU. Doing it that way ensured that I only tanked up once a week. And I didn’t have to worry about finding parking downtown.
It’s not my intent to start a flame war here. I’d be interested in reading some of the other threads posted on this topic.
Since we’re on the subject of Portland, here’s some perhaps not-so-great news regarding the Port of Portland’s decision to forego the development of a new rail intermodal yard near Troutdale along the UP Gorge line:
http://www.flypdx.com/Reynolds_Home.aspx
There seems to be ongoing concern about the Port of Portland’s ability to become a major container port, a concern shared up the river all the way to Lewiston Idaho. The 40’ draft of the Columbia River (soon to be 43’) limits the ability of the Post Panamax ships to effectively serve Portland, even as a primarily outbound port. Of course, the one big advantage Portland has over Seattle and Tacoma is that in addition to being served by both UP and BNSF via water level grades through the Gorge (as opposed to the 2.2% grades of Stevens and Stampede passes to the Puget Sound), it is also the focal port for the Columbia-Snake River Waterway system, the main conduit for export products from the interior PNW to Pacific Rim markets.
I’ll ask this question I’ve asked before: Why don’t Oregon officials look to develop Astoria as a primary container port? Astoria has the ability to host deep draft super containerships, while still being accessable by Columbia-Snake River barges and by rail (albeit limited to BNSF, not UP). What would it take to get BNSF to amend it’s contract with the current shortline owner of the ex-SP&S line to Astoria to allow service by both BNSF and UP bound trains?
You raise an interesting question, FM…
The news around/about the PofPDX is new to me. Up until within a couple of years ago, BN still retained ownership of the rail line in question, though they very seldom used it, and if I remember correctly, the last 10-11 miles of the line were very close to being embargoed, b/c of some kind of bridge washout (the land is very low-lying). I had heard that the reason BN held on to the line as long as it did was b/c of just the possibility you’ve raised. Then, the next thing I’d heard, the Astoria line was included in the transfer of ownership to the regional Portland & Western/Willamette & Pacific.
So, my best answer is that BNSF queried state and local officials about their intent to develop this kind of terminal, decided that nothing positive was going to happen, and thought it best to divest themselves of the line. If you’re implying that our state and local officials are penny-wise and pound-foolish, point taken!! It could/would eliminate a lot of unnecessary truck traffic on a rather narrow two-lane highway btw PDX/Astoria. I suspect (but don’t know for sure) that if your story about port access into PDX is accurate, advantage may accrue to Kalama, WA, ~40-45 miles upstream from Portland.
Riprap