I received my BLI P5a electric boxcab and tried running it around my layout. I’m not happy. I think that there are flaw in the engine. I don’t know if these are design flaws o
I don’t see how this would be a locomotive problem.
I have over 15 road locomotives that can easily pull seven freight cars around my layout. The P5a can not. I can’t think of a clearer locomotive problem.
OP,
I would shoot a detailed email to the BLI repair department - just like you’ve described it here - and see what they suggest. There may be a shorting issue with the locomotive and may recommend you shipping the P5a back to them in Ormand Beach. If so, figure 4-6 weeks turnaround time on a repair.
Tom
I am not sure if any of this is BLI’s issue.
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If it does not do it on ALL reversing sections, I would think you have a problem with that reversing section.
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This really sounds like a trackwork problem.
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Could be fixed with decoder setting… maybe? I am not a DCC guy.
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Anyway, send a note to BLI and see what they say as Tom suggested. BLI has always been very quick to reply to me, but they never tell me what I want to hear. I am not even a customer of theirs, but they still answer me quickly.
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The P5 is a beast of an engine with an unusual wheel arrangement. I think it is about the equivilent of a large 4-8-4 Northern. The three drive axles are spaced out quite a bit and are rigid in the frame.
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This will require very good track to be reliable.
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-Kevin
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You got fooled too, huh? [;)]
I don’t have an extensive history in the hobby, but I do have at least 22 different locomotives from five or six different manufacturers. Almost without exception, every time I get a new locomotive I find a location in my rail system that I have to modify in order to get that one locomotive to run reliably there. Usually it’s a rail height disparity problem, and this sounds very convincingly to me that therein lies your troubles with the electric motor. Oddly, not once in my modest history of having to do this has it meant that now one, two, or more of my previously acquired locomotives no longer works in that location. It’s only ever a one-way progression in my experience. I think you’re about to learn this for yourself. [:D]
There are two things you can do to help to see if you’re really dealing with a design/assembl
I did some more testing. I have three reversing sections with eight block boundries. The P5a has problems crossing four of those block boundries. I don’t dispute that the problem could be trackwork, but I’m not inclined to spend hours trying to find and fix problems that don’t affect my other locomotives.
The dealer I purchased the P5a from has either a 10 day or 30 day return policy (there are different numbers of days in his literature). I think I’ll just return the locomotive and pay the restocking fee rather than take on the track work frustration.
I will let BLI know about the problems. They may find the information useful. Thank you all for taking the time and trouble to read about this problem and offer your suggestions.
Before you send the loco back, I would like to suggest you to try running the engine on every track in your layout at low or moderate speed continuously for at least 30 mins, the longer the time the better the result. It is hard to explain but it always works for my new engines. Hope this helps!
Guys, doesn’t this rule out almost any possibility of level or cross-level problem with either the locomotive or its suspension arrangements? Unless he has some common mode thing with the way he’s constructed the insulating section that is physically lifting something improperly … which I tend to doubt.
The near immediate thing I’d try, if you’re not afraid to touch the wiring, is to disconnect any power pickup from one truck and see where the locomotive stops with the ‘dead’ truck leading. If it goes up to the drivers now, you know something. Repeat with the other one, reconnecting the first.
I’m assuming this can’t be any issue with the way the engine trucks are insulated, either in the wheelsets or in the frame. You could check this with a good multimeter (that reads very low resistances precisely, not just shows continuity). I’m also assuming all the pickups are patent, checked from the wheelrim of each wheel on the locomotive to a reference ground of some appropriate placement. All of you who know decoders and multimeter test amperage chime in on ways he should conduct testing safely to keep all the delicate magic smoke untrammeled.
BLI tech support recommended that I return the P5a. My trouble report and their response follow.
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Subject: Re: Technical Support Contact Form Submitted
To: Marshall Abrams abrams_railroad@comcast.net
From: Tech Support techsupport@broadway-limited.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 11:05:59 -0400
Hello Marshall,
I’m sorry to say that based on what you are describing I would have to recommend returning it for a
refund.
There might be some minor manufacturing defect that contributes to the problem you are describing -
but sometimes one particular design with one particular layout just does not work.
If you wanted to troubleshoot and try to work on it, I would recommend placing the model on a
smooth, flat surface such as a glass table, and then slide the corner of a piece of paper under each
wheel.
You should feel resistance on the paper as it slides under them. If the paper glides freely under one or
more of the wheel flanges then that would indicate that there is a balance issue with the model (which
could cause electrical pickup issues and reduce pulling power).
If you decide to do the paper test, let us know the results and we’ll go from there - otherwise please
contact your point-of-purchase for a refund.
Thank you.
Your message: I received my P5a electric boxcab on Friday, June 7. After extensive testing I’m not
happy. I think that there are flaws in the engine. I don’t know if these are design flaws or
manufacturing. I’m trying to determine if I should return the locomotive for a refund.
I started a thread on the MR Forum. One responder suggested that I seek your advice. There are two
sets of problems; in decreasing importance they are:
(1) There is a
What brand of turnouts are you using for your reversing sections?
I have a problem with one reverse section where it sometimes shorts out and then recovers when an engine enters that track, but only once unless I power off all my track, and after that everything is fine. I could have a wiring error, or I could have a problem with how the trip currents are set. I’ve never gotten around to it.
I received the two P5a’s I purchased this week, both arrived defective. with the throttle set to loco address 3, i pressed F9 to initiate the start-up sequence. The start up sequence played, but I noticed that both front & rear headlights also came on. The headlights would not turn off with F0, and the bell and horn also didn’t respond when F1 & F2 were pressed. I then advanced the throttle, and neither would move in forward or reverse. Both models were exactly the same. I called BLI support today and explained the issues - they had no answers. Both models are on their way back to the on-line dealer for a refund, I won’t be ordering replacements.
A P5 is the equivalent of a 4-6-4 and is not a very big motor. I wonder if the pilot trucks are oversprung and “lifting” the drivers off the track.
on the two I received,both the front & rear trucks floated freely with no downward pressure. In speaking to the on-line dealer I purchased the two I had from, they told me that 4 of the 6 P5a’s they’d sold had or were being returned. The other two were still on the shelf for in-store pick-up. the on-line dealer told me that one of the P5a’s that had already been returned was due to it being a poor puller.
My layout is about 20 years old. It uses code 100 Atlas flex track and Atlas turnouts. 99% of the turnouts are #4. Frogs are not powered.
Many of the reversing block boundries are not associated with turnouts, but may be located on curved track. Some were made by cutting track with a Dremel Tool.
I have a pair of the P5a motors. I tested them right out of the box on address 3 and they both hesitated at certain turnouts (Shinohara code 83, #8 and #10s) my frogs are powered but it may be possible that there are dead spots at some of the double slips.
I did have trouble setting the engine number address using Decoder Pro with one of the locos. Tonight I spent a little more time, doing a factory reset then clicking “Write all sheets” to reload the custom settings and everything wrote just fine. I have both locos running with the same address, presently.
I happened to have an eighty-three car freight on the layout. Mostly forty-footers, a few fiftys and a handful of sisty-footers.
I coupled up both engines and although there was a little wheel-slip while getting up to speed, the double-headed P5as got the train up to track speed and continued to run pretty well. There is a slight wobble on one of the engines. I’ll have to turn it over and take a better look.
I continued to run them and they seemed to run better with each lap. I believe there is a coating of blackening agent on the wheels that has to work off in order to get better contact and traction.
I have a 1.5% grade and the pair only made it up that with roughly half the train. I gave a little five-finger boost at this point and the motors dug-in and continued up the grade once most of the 83 car train was back on the level.
I do believe Broadway should have done a better job of equalization with the axles. At a minimum they should have made the center axle sprung and allowed it to rise and fall with the rail contours. I have a 60° crossing that the engines pound over and you can tell that the thing is like a brick hitting those frogs.
Still, I’m glad to have them. The real ones weren’t known for being all that good at acceleration and speed, that’s why the PRR went with the GG1 in passenger service over the P5a. In freight service you frequently saw them in
Old.Professor,
Wait, you’re using _two_DCS100’s? How are you doing that? And for pete’s sake, why? My club’s layout is currently over 3000 sq. ft. and we only use one. I sure hope you have one DCS100 set as a booster-only (and I don’t even know if that’s possible with a DCS100), otherwise you have two command stations fighting each other.
Secondly, back in 1998 when my club went DCC, we ran some experiments. We found that using a DCS100 to power autoreversing track caused slight hiccups with the track power. The headlights would flicker and the engines might pause a smidge when crossing the gap. Our solution was not to use a DCS100 for autoreversing.
And you have one DCS100 autoreversing three different blocks? Wait…what? Why would you do that? Good grief, go buy a PM42 already. That will handle up to 4 auto-reversing sections.
Anyways, back to my club’s test stand. We also found that the reversing gaps had to be exactly opposite each other, and that sometimes locos with pilot wheels would have trouble with setting off the short that causes the reverser to operate because both wheels are not electrically connected to the rest of the engine. This problem was found when using a DCS100 as an autoreverser. We have never had that problem with other autoreversers like the PM42.
As for the headlight direction at 0% speed, that’s been the case with BLI since day one.
And if your 4-6-4 electric cannot navigate your track work, then you need to fix your track. Unless the pilot and trailing trucks have no vertical play, which would cause the engine to “bridge” and hang the drivers up off the rails; that would be BLI’s fault. But, if the pilot/trailing trucks do have plenty of vertical play, that m
Reply by Paul3 Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:12:44 -0500
Old.Professor,
Wait, you’re using twoDCS100’s? How are you doing that? And for pete’s sake, why?
Paul3, thanks for taking the time and trouble to write. You are correct; I made an error. I have a DCS100 and a DB150.
Secondly, back in 1998 when my club went DCC, we ran some experiments. We found that using a DCS100 to power autoreversing track caused slight hiccups with the track power. The headlights would flicker and the engines might pause a smidge when crossing the gap. Our solution was not to use a DCS100 for autoreversing.
My experience is the same. A few years ago, when my original DB 100+ died, I replaced it with a DB150. I’m using the DB 150 for autoreversing. The DCS 100 does not autoreverse.
And you have one DCS100 autoreversing three different blocks? Wait…what? Why would you do that?
There were no auxiliary autoreversers available in 1998 when I built my layout. It’s working fine with more than 15 other locomotives. I see no reason to change.
Good grief, go buy a PM42 already. That will handle up to 4 auto-reversing sections.
Anyways, back to my club’s test stand. We also found that the reversing gaps had to be exactly opposite each other, and that sometimes locos with pilot wheels would have trouble with setting off the short that causes the reverser to operate because both wheels are not electrically connected to the rest of the engine. This problem was found when using a DCS100 as an autoreverser. We have never had that problem with other autoreversers like the PM42.
I understand what you’re saying. I’m glad for you that your club has found a solution that works satisfactorily.
As for the headlight direction at 0% speed, that’s been the case with BLI since day one.
In my opinion, that
Old.Professor,
The fact is that a PM42 is better at autoreversing than a DB150, can handle 4 blocks (either in autoreverse or circuit breaker mode) and it’s $100 less than a booster. It’s also been around since at least 2002, and the PM4 predates that.
And yes, if you have a loco with a 20’ rigid wheelbase (as the P-5 does) and the center driver comes off the rail, then your track is at fault. Your vertical curves are just too sharp. I hope you don’t want to run 2-10-0’s, 2-10-2’s or even some 4-8-2’s or 4-8-4’s as several of these types have a 20’ rigid wheelbase or greater.
Springing drivers doesn’t do much for HO model trains. The springs are there for electrical contact, not suspension. For example, I have an NJ/Custom Brass 4-6-2 with sprung drivers, but the center driver stuck down lower by a few thousandths than the #1 or #3 drivers on the right side (the pick-up side). Whenever I went over a dead frog Atlas #6 switch (the #505 and #506), that center driver would hit that slightly higher frog and lift the entire engine up, breaking contact with the #1 and #3 drivers from the rail and causing the engine to stop. If sprung drivers really were there for suspension, that wouldn’t have happened; the lower center driver would have compressed the spring allowing the other drivers to stay on the rail. That didn’t happen. Instead, I shimmed the center driver up with a piece of brass, leveling the drivers. After that, I never had that problem again.
All six drivers (or three axles) are geared together. I don’t see how the middle driver could slip without the others slipping, too.
Cheers, Ed