i already stated that bemf is often disabled when consisting
if you only had a single locomotive, the deocder could sense via bemf that the motor was slowing down going up a hill and would increase the drive voltage to the motor. monitoring bemf occurs all the time. of cource this is less realistic
as already mentioned, bemf improves slow speed performance. it could, for instance, momentarily provide a higher drive voltage to get the loco moving and then quickly reduce the voltage to maintain a slow speed and potentially increase it at times if it senses the motor stalling.
being able to control speed using software makes it easier to experiment with other ideas. (no reason there couldn’t be software in a DC throttle to manage the output voltage).
“micro-operation” is also becoming popular, at the very least requiring a brake to slow/stop the train. the knob on the throttle only controls “tractive effort” and acceleration, not speed, so setting it to zero wouldn’t stop the train. westinghouse brakes are not like car brakes that can be reduced. reducing loco brakes results in a complete reduction of brakes. i think the TAT-V did some of this by maintaining a control voltage using fat capacitors, but i don’t believe the braking was as realistic
so micro-operation requires thinking more like a loco engineer and less like a video game. neat for some, not so for others
I also like that not only can I tune locomotives to run together, but I can also use DCC to make sure that when the throttle knob is at 9 o clock the engine is going 5 mph, at 12 o clock it’s going 20, and I can set the top speed so operators can’t blast through at 150 mph.
I think both systems have their place. When I first started back in 90’s, I was simply looking to set up a 5x9 table layout. It was very easy to get started with atlas track, caboose hobby turnout control, and a basic MRC power pack. The only major change for the next several decades was to add an Aristo-Craft Train Engineer! Since we typically only operated one train at a time and could park locos on the layout using the Atlas selector, the setup was perfect! For the new RR’er, IMO, this is an optimal solution to set up a layout quickly with walk-around control at a very modest cost. Sadly, the AC train engineers are hard to find.
Of course, DCC can do all that and more. IMO, DCC is a bit intimidating for someone new to model railroading. Today, we’re blessed with many fine starter systems that are easy to setup. Buy a loco with a decoder and one is up and running quickly. Walk around control is possible but at a significant added cost for radio systems. I think DCC with wifi control is an exciting development that would appeal to many. One can start out using an old Ipad or cellphone. Not perfect but gets one running with DCC more quickly and at a modest additional cost. My new layout will definitely have DCC and walkaround control using wifi. My old MRC pack and TE control taught me the value of walkaround control. Sound will be nice but don’t believe I will use it full time. JMO.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
And I have grades, and pull long trains that actually require this power. How often would BEMF actually work?
not sure what you’re asking.
i already stated that bemf is often disabled when consisting
if you only had a single locomotive, the deocder could sense via bemf that the motor was slowing down going up a hill and would increase the drive voltage to the motor. monitoring bemf occurs all the time. of cource this is less realistic
as already mentioned, bemf improves slow speed performance. it could, for instance, momentarily provide a higher drive voltage to get the loco moving and then quickly reduce the voltage to maintain a slow speed and potentially increase it at times if it senses the motor stalling.
being able to control speed using software makes it easier to experiment with other ideas. (no reason there couldn’t be software in a DC throttle to manage the output voltage).
“micro-operation” is also becoming popular, at the very least requiring a brake to slow/stop the train. the knob on the throttle only controls “tractive effort” and acceleration, not speed, so setting it to zero wouldn’t stop the train. westinghouse brakes are not like car brakes that can be reduced. reducing loco brakes results in a complete reduction of brakes. i think the TAT-V did some of this by maintaining a control voltage using fat capacitors, but i don’t believe the braking was as realistic
so micro-operation requires thinking more like a loco engineer and less like a video game. neat for some, not so for others
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Tom, a number of my DC diesels have factory constant lighting with working Mars lights, they are very effective, especially on the full voltage pulses of PWM control.
This is not a criticism, just an observation. Many “newer” modelers who went with DCC early or right away in their modeling, are simply and completely unaware of what has been done, and is commonly done with DC.
Sheldon,
Are lighting effects easily turned on/off or adjusted (e.g. pulse rate, type) using DC? Or, is that something that is pre-set by the factor boards that come with the locomotive?
Tom
The pulse rate of the Mars lights is constant no matter loco speed and is preset.
Depending on the throttles you use, lighting comes on full brightness (or very nearly so) as soon as the loco moves, or often before it moves.
With the PWM DC throttles I use, lighting comes on well before the locos move, and you can let the loco sit like that with no harm - I might not want to do that for hours…
There is no turning them off or on, they are automaticly on if the loco has power, off if it is completely off.
But in most cases the lighting is directional, headlights go off in reverse, backup or “B” end lights come on only in reverse, so the rear facing headlight of a back to back pair of A units is off when the train is moving forward.
I model the 50’s, no ditch lights, daytime running lights just becoming standard, some roads using Mars lights.
It works fine for me, I don’t really want to be bothered w
No offense to you or anyone, but my interest in model trains is not centered around being a railroad engineer.
It is about creating the whole layout as both a minature display and a representation of railroading. I see model trains more from the perspective of the viewer, or a railfan, than from the perspective of the engineer/operator.
I enjoy operation…until you make it too detailed, too dry, and too serious.
I like having the option of just “turning on some trains” and watching them run.
To make the point a little stronger, if I only had room for a small bedroom layout, I would likely put it all on Ebay tomorrow.
That’s why on anohter thread, I referred to scale trains as toys. They are once you start playing engineer or any other railroad employee function.
Like Sheldon, for me. it is all about creating the whole layout as both a minature display and a representation of railroading. As with Sheldon, I see model trains more from the perspective of the viewer, or a railfan, than from the perspective of the engineer/operator.
Considering all the information I found on this forum I bought a Tech 6 plus the handheld addon. MRC is just now out of stock on this item which suggests they may have decided to stop making it.
In the course of looking for information as to how the Tech 6 actually works I learned a bit about the MRC black box, the working bits of which are supposed to have been integrated into the Tech 6. The advantage of this turns out to be that you do not need to take the black box out of circuit when switching to DC mode, the switch on the Tech 6 does this for you.
The main negative to the Tech 6 is the same as for any attempt to run DC and DCC on the same tracks: possibly inadvertently directing DCC power to a DC locomotive on a live section of track.
I look forward to testing the Tech 6 very soon on our multiple block DC only layout. The handheld will power up to 6 locomotives concurrently using a very simple 01 - 06 semi automatic addressing and CV programming sequence. The settings are saved and recalled in a rotating stack. Locomotive 3 is the default single locomotive address.
The main issue will be how many locomotives my brain can safely control.
I suspect that the main limiting factor to how useful DCC might be to a model railroader is that.
Simplified wiring really isn’t a big advantage to DCC. You still benefit from multiple blocks and multiple off switches common to any reasonably complex DC layout.
I’d say DCC sound effects are the main appeal to a single operator layout. Many of those are automatically played when in DC mode now.
I agree with you 100%, although I thought that I had mentioned imagination earlier in this thread (I was wrong, but it is in another recent thread).
As a kid, imagination for me was crucial (and remains so), and my own kids had (and still have) it, as do my grandkids.
They’re far brighter than those tapping-out texts and glued to screens, digesting the unimaginative pap and violence being peddled nowadays.
Sheldon wrote: The biggest thing lacking from DC is sound, if you want sound you need DCC.
There were sound systems in DC years ago that were in use, sound is not exclusive to DCC.
The big difference between DC and DCC is that in DCC you have independent control of locomotives in the same block. This is a game changer for me and many other modelers. That is the reason I switched to DCC. It is also the reason that most OPs based layouts converted to DCC nearly two decades ago.
If you are a solo operator or have an OPs scheme designed so that you don’t need the flexibility to run locomotives independently in the same block, then the advantages of DCC are reduced significantly. However, if you run multiple trains in close proximity with multiple operators or simply like the flexibility of not having to be as concerned with blocks, then DCC is the way to go. For myself and many modelers, this one aspect of DCC is worth all of the possible drawbacks to the system – for us, sound is the value added extra, not the main advantage of DCC.
Sheldon wrote: The biggest thing lacking from DC is sound, if you want sound you need DCC.
There were sound systems in DC years ago that were in use, sound is not exclusive to DCC.
The big difference between DC and DCC is that in DCC you have independent control of locomotives in the same block. This is a game changer for me and many other modelers. That is the reason I switched to DCC. It is also the reason that most OPs based layouts converted to DCC nearly two decades ago.
If you are a solo operator or have an OPs scheme designed so that you don’t need the flexibility to run locomotives independently in the same block, then the advantages of DCC are reduced significantly. However, if you run multiple trains in close proximity with multiple operators or simply like the flexibility of not having to be as concerned with blocks, then DCC is the way to go. For myself and many modelers, this one aspect of DCC is worth all of the possible drawbacks to the system – for us, sound is the value added extra, not the main advantage of DCC.
Sheldon,
I’ve actually used a PFM sound system on a DC layout, and it was suprisingly good. I especially liked the whistle control as each tape had up to 5 chimes, and you could pick hi, low, or off for each one, meaning you had 242 different whistle sounds you could make per tape. And the spring loaded whistle control lever worked real well for “whistle talk”. DCC still hasn’t surpassed it, though Digitrax has come closest with their pressure sensitive whistle button.
DCC is valuable on any layout where there is more than one engine or train parked on it at one time. I love being able to park my locos in an engine terminal wherever they fit and not where the blocks happen to be. At my old DC club, having to park 44-tonners in the blocks made for Big Boys was annoying.
I think the main reason why so many serious operators don’t consider signals vital is due to the expense and labor involved plus the fact that they just aren’t needed. Our trains can stop so quickly that signals are a “nice to have” part of the hobby vs. wireless throttles, switch lists/car cards, etc., for the operator-type layout. Oh, and that most layouts are single-operator types. Not much point to having signals if the layout only runs one train at a time. [:)]
At my club, we also run 30+ trains per session: 15 pass., 12 freight, 8 peddlars, plus a couple terminal switching operators in a 2 hour session with up to 24 people (and as few as 7). We currently only have two working signals; one at each end of a 60’ long single track between passing sidings. I’ve got each one wired into a DCC decoder’s headlight functions and programmed to the same address (one signal is always red, the other always green; they cannot be both green or both red). I control the signals using a DCC throttle from the dispatcher’s tower; the direction of decoder controls the signals. It’s a stop gap
Gotta agree about PFM…the whistle was great!! I also liked the small ported speaker sound. I have used a couple in DCC sound installs and they sound pretty good when compared to modern DCC speakers … There were several in our group that mourned the loss of their PFM systems to DCC…Mostly O scale guys…
Sheldon I think that mainline running with signals sounds pretty cool as an ops plan - not sure whey we don’t see more of that. I see more signals at clubs maybe due to the longer mainline runs available.
I have currently six operating signals on the layout but they are either turnout position/route indicators or eye candy. I animate a couple with signal animators from Logic Rail. Searchlight signals in the valley scream SP to me. Gotta have em’
Paul, I once said DCC wasn’t needed on a small ISL… Today I think DCC is a big plus on any size ISL due to CV settings that improves prototyical operation of a locomotive and especially if sound is being used.
That Proto Throttle is a honey of a controller but, I like emulating the job I did as a brakeman.
As a head brakeman I rode in many cabs and have throttle time on three GP9s and IIRC 60 loaded hoppers on a mine branch… Of course the engineer was instructing me. Top speed was a blistering 15 mph due to track conditions
The rules we broke that day would have gotten us fired on the spot.
In my opinion, and in the opinion of several great modelers from the past, the mistake too many modelers make about signaling is they get too caught up in block signals and the details of obscure signal aspects when they should just focus on interlocking or “control point” signals.
Our distances, even on large club layouts, generally do not justify intermediate block signals.
If we just model the interlocking signals, and even skip a few less important signal aspects for our purposes, we are left with something easier to build, that is actually useful to the operators and easy to understand.
And, it will be prototypical enough to give a good visual effect.
And it will be easy for operators to learn and understand.