Proto 2000 GP38-2 - Gear Lubrication

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Hi, I have Googled this and searched the Community, but I cannot find an answer to my specific enquiry (after figuring-out how to get the Body-shell off) which is:

‘After removing the 2 No. Screws next to the Fuel Tank, how do I remove the Die-cast Weight, so I can access the Gears for Lubrication’? The Weight has Pick-up Wires (from the Trucks) that are secured by adhesive Tape.

Short of undoing all the Wiring - I am at a loss as to why anyone would design it in this manner, when a couple of Lubrication access holes are all that would be required, for each Truck?

I don’t want to dismantle any more than I have to, but I will cut & re-solder Wires, if that is what it takes.

Any guidance or directing to a really useful Youtube vid on this subject, would be much appreciated. Thanks, Paul

2

I don’t have any of those locos, but most plastic models of diesels have clip-on covers on the bottom of each truck. A small screwdriver or a not-too-sharp X-Acto blade, used carefully, should remove the cover easily. I’ll take a photo of an older Athearn diesel to show the cover and the gears, and add it here.

EDIT:

Here’s the plastic cover plate, which is a one-piece snap-on…

The X-Acto blade, at the top in the photo below, is inserted between the truck’s gear housing and the edge of the coverplate, then given a small twist to disengage one side of the end of the coverplate…

Repeat this procedure on the same side, but other end of the same truck, and the cover will pop off, revealing the gears…

Once you’ve completed the lube job, replace the coverplate, engaging the clips on one side of the cover, then pressing down on the opposite side to snap it into place.

Wayne

3

There should be a screw hidden by the trucks on each end. Turn the trucks to one side or the other, and look.

Along with the 2 screws next to the fuel tank.

I think the only screws that you see when you pop off the fuel tank, hold the motor in place.

I think the wires can be lifted out after removing the tape. I don’t remember any cutting of the wires.

You might be able to lub the gears from the bottom, by removing the truck covers, as you would for replacing the wheel sets.

Good time to check for the cracked gear issue while your doing this.

Mike.

EDIT: Dr. Wayne posted, while I typed, about accessing the gears from the bottom of the trucks.

4

My P2K GP9s have those wheel covers, so I’d imagine your GP38s do, too. Be patient. It may take a bit of screwdriver or knife work to get under the cover plate to dislodge it.

Buy that tube of Labelle grease before you start. And you probably should clean out the mechanism and remove any old hardened grease before you put any more in.

5

If you really want to remove the weight you will have to pry the plastic cover off the bottom of the fuel tank weight (This is the GP9):

LL_Proto_Geep by Edmund, on Flickr

That plastic fuel tank can be a bugger to peel free sometimes.

There are also two small screws just behind the coupler pockets, too. You can see them in the fourth photo here:

https://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/1404

Even after the screws have been removed I sometimes have to use a #17 X-acto blade to pry the weight off the painted frame.

Good luck, Ed

6

I don’t think you need to remove the weight(s) to lube the worm gears. If you do, then be aware it is a bit of a nuisance.

Imho, it is unnecessary to access the worm gears. They are metal and no a,int if running against the plastic driven gears is going to require any lubricant directly on the worm gear itself.

Don’t bother removing the shell.

Just put the locomotive upside down in some sort of cradle. Those pre shaped foam cradles are a bit pricey but really the ticket.

Flip off the gear covers from the bottom of the trucks as described above. Be careful using a knife point as the plastic is rather soft. If you cut one even a little it may snap at the nick.

Ive used jewellers flat blade screwdrivers. (Eye glass repair screwdrivers work). I’ve also used automotive I ring removal tools and similar tools are used in dentistry. I find I have to use two tools to pry out and flip off these covers.

Labelle plastic compatible gear lube is a very good product. If you can run your locomotive while it’s upside down the lube from the plastic driven gears wil easily work its way down onto the worm gear. Even right side up enough oil will get onto the worm to do the job, it’s the plastic gears that are taking the wear forces.

While the gear covers are off pick out the axles (they just drop in or lift out) and carefully examine the gears where they press fit into the steel axle stubs to drive the wheels. The sleeve around the axle is where these gears are known to split if original to the model. I bought a NIB GP30 which had never been run and was sold as being in “as new” condition. Sure enough the axle gears were splitting and the characteristic clicking and hesitation were evident within a few minutes of operating. The cracking can be very hard to see. You have a GP 38-2 which is not one of the models subject to gear cracking. Lifting the axles out will get you deeper into the trucks for putting oil

7

Hi Guys, thank you for all your help, suggestions and encouragement. I have taken it all in and persisted but to no avail. The Covers just do not seem willing to be sprung-off and I am nervous of breaking one (or something else) I found the best Pry-bar, for initial prising-up was my Stanley Bradawl, but I remained uncertain as to how far I could insert a Blade thereafter.

However, I will persist and not give up. I will have another go later. I am using my old faithful B/B GP38-2 as a test loco, whilst I finish-up my wiring (DC) and the P2k GP38-2 is just for confirming Isolation Tracks, Circuitry and Switches, etc.

Thank you, regards, Paul

8

Ouch! You may want to rethink your tool of choice, Paul…

L-L_SD-50-truck by Edmund, on Flickr

Unless your Stanley Awl has a finer point then mine. On the right I show my smallest Wiha 1.5 mm slotted screwdriver. It will fit under the latch without causing too much “pry-action” and distort the clip.

L-L_SD-50-truck-clip by Edmund, on Flickr

I couldn’t get a good angle for a photo but you would have to go in under the axle shown here.

Good Luck, Ed

9

Hi everyone, and thankyou for your replies.

After my earlier disapointment today with my B/B GP38-2, I turned my attention to another outstanding job, the Gear-Lub of my 2 No. P2K GP38-2’s. I stated that I would return to this at a later date - and I have.

The Good news is that after re-visiting all of your replies, I succeeded in prising-off the offending Gear-casing, bottom Covers.

This still took some doing IMO and I still cannot help but be slightly dubious of the design. However, I checked then greased the Gears (which they did need) and oiled the Axle Bushes. Both Locos now run far smoother and quieter, than before. [yeah]

The Bad news is that the very last Cover proved to be really difficult. I had done one end, with two scalpel blades keeping it ‘open’, the far side of the final end - ok, but the very last of all, the Clip snapped clean-off, without even trying. [oops]

So I am going to have to obtain a spare assembly from Walthers (I only hope my email isn’t rejected as spam)

The Loco is re-assembled and running for the moment, but I like to have things as they should be, if at all possible.

Also, the Gear-train was to me - a very strange design. With all the Gears in-line like that. IMO, it is no wonder they suffer from cracking. Not withstanding the type of Plastic used, the Gears should be at least twice as thick as they are. Even though only for a Model, they are still subject to forces and loads acting upon them, lateral and radial.

When I removed the Covers, the whole Gearbox immediately tries to dismantle itself! Everything has to be held and pressed together to ‘Snap-back’ into the right place (I hope) This cannot help towards correct alignment of the Gears. Likewise the layout of the Screws securing the Body, Chassis and Casting. I get the impression of last-minute design-work.

Once again, thanks for all of your help, mission accomplished, regards Paul

10

You were looking at a gear reduction set. These step down the motor rpm further than just the worm gear can do.

For future reference you might usefully use Labelle oil for those instead of grease.

I’ve found if you oil the gearsets with the locomotive upside down and then run it upside down the oil gets onto the brass worm drive sufficiently to lubricate that also, grease isn’t necessary since the metal worm drives only the plastic reduction gears.

You never need to remove the weights or light board in order to lubricate the gears. You can even drop the trucks right out and disassemble them without taking the light board out. Be aware that the exact same plastic is used for the clips that cover the worm gear and hold the trucks in. Breaking one of those would leave you hooped. The ABS these clips are made of is quite strong but, as you discovered, not infinitely strong,

I did completely dismantle a Proto 1000 C Liner B unit, made much the same way, in order to lubricate the motor bearings.

My odyssey in that respect is here:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/286679/3317110.aspx#3317110

Its not that hard but you do have to be careful not to substitute force for correct technique. The clips don’t have to be pried out too far but getting at them to pry them enough is tricky. You only need to bend out the clip part by a mm or so, hard to believe but true.

11

Sometimes the manufacturers do respond with design changes. (Hopefully for the better)

Witness the Walthers redesign of the Life-Like E6-7-8 in its most recent (for me, anyway) iteration:

Walthers_E7-gearcase by Edmund, on Flickr

Helical gears, almost double in width and (most of) the intermediate gears have bronze bearings! This is getting close to the sweet spot!

Walthers_E7-gearcase-near by Edmund, on Flickr

They still went stingy on the lube, though. That little skid-mark is all there was in there. It always pays to open 'er up and take a look.

These venerable L-L E units have gone through probably a dozen refinements over the last 25 years. I never had one with any kind of power-train failure that I recall. I have replaced some wobbly slip-joint drive shafting but otherwise mine are all pretty much running “as-delivered”.

Regards, Ed

12

Once again, Thank you for your replies.

Somehow I’ve always prefferred Oil over Grease. You can apply a little - and more often.

Ed, those Gears certainly are nice and chunky. Looking at the Teeth Profile, I certainly would apply Grease to them, since there is a lot of surface contact there.

It was a bit of a downer, that last Cover breaking. The one before, I had got the knack to the extent that it sprung-off really easy and landed on the floor. So perhaps I was getting carried-away.

Paul

13

But they do very different things tribologically…

When I was in my early teens I got hold of an ‘audiophile’ turntable for playing vinyl records. This had an enormous tapered and precisely-ground center shaft sitting on a ball bearing at the bottom. I carefully cleaned all the old caked lubricant off this, carefully oiled it, put on a record… and it slowly ran to a halt. Used a different and less viscous oil for less bearing drag… still ran to a halt. What it needed was green grease.

If you need lubricant with EP additives that stays in one place, like gear teeth, and you can shield it from picking up dust, grease is probably preferable. For bearings and shafts intended to minimize friction, one of the oils is probably preferable – the shafts in these drives being examples.

14

For nearly all the slow-turning truck and worm gears I use Labelle #106.

https://labelle-lubricants.com/shop/labelle-106-grease-with-ptfe/

Some of the brass engines I have are fitted with open gearcases. The Labelle seems to cling better without slinging off. Yes, as Overmod mentions, an open gearcase is prone to picking up cat hair and ballast but I have to be a little more vigilant about keeping the gears clean.

Good Luck, Ed

15

With these plastic geartrains driven by brass worm gears the oil on the plastic gears is the critical lubrication. Those worm gears aren’t going to wear at all whether greased, oiled or naked. The worm gear bearings need oil, you’ll never get the grease into the right spot. The sliding pins in the plastic universal joints could benefit from grease rather than oil as that will stay put and no oil can get there from other components.

A moment’s thought will show that any grease on the worm gear is going to get onto the plastic geartrains and any oil on the plastic gears will mix into that grease on the worm drive.

Oil the plastic for sure. Worm drive needs no separate lubrication.

If you disagree show me a worn worm drive…

16

I’m not sure which Proto 2000 GP38-2 this is, but either the back of some of the Proto 2000 boxes or the instructions state that the shaft bearings are anisotropic bronze bearings and should never under normal circumstances require lubricant. They actually impregnated the bronze bearings with graphite if I recall correctly. Likewise, if gears are delrin they are considered to be “self lubricating” because delrin is very slippery plastic.

So adding lubricant may be optional, may make things a little bit more quiet, but is technically not, according to the manufacturer, “required”.

Some other manufacturers are stating that brand new engines produced today are lightly lubricated at the factory and should not require additional lubrication–but they do go ahead and suggest occasionally lubricating the bearing plates used for power pickup that the axle ends turn in.

The Bowser technician who is responsible for some of their product design recently explained to me that lubrication of the worm shaft bearings is not necessary as the lubricant from the worm actually works its way through the shaft bearings. He was applying a little Labelle oil to the worm at the top of the gear tower, and he did apply a drop of oil to motor bearings.

Most modelers use way too much lubrication, and the excessive lubricant generally only attracts dirt that can result in excessive wear. If it doesn’t squeak, I generally don’t oil it (excepting said axle bearings).

John

17

A twenty-year old, new-in-box Proto 2000 locomotive falls into the category of not normal circumstances, I would say.

Proto_gear-3 by Edmund, on Flickr

This FA-2 was still in its shrink wrap when I bought it. While giving it an initial test on DC I saw the current increase but the engine didn’t move.

Proto_gear-5 by Edmund, on Flickr

Any locomotive that has sat in a warehouse or basement for more than five years should be stripped and every moving part evaluated.

In the case of many of the early runs of the Life-Like engines something reacted between the compounds in the lubricant and the alloys of the bearing and shaft material. Besides the green oxide there was a material that resembled varnish or shellac. It was amber in color, solid and acted just like a thread-locker or ACC glue would.

The last group of Bowser Alco Centuries I bought had grease oozing out of the axle ends.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/Grpqzv][img]https://live.staticflickr.com/1576/26

18

Yup, that green crud was on the worm drive of my P1K C Liner whiner. It pops off like a piece of solid moulded plastic when it’s really old. I imagine adding a little oil or grease to the gearset would eventually release the green crud which would eventually get ground up in the gearset and dropped on your track…or you could pop off the worm gear plastic covers and clean it out first which is what I did on the whiner. Turned out the motor bearings were dry on that model so probably not strictly speaking essential to get rid of the green crud. But hey, once you’re that far into the dissassembly you might as well “do it right”.

19

I soaked my parts in some lacquer thinner or VM&P naptha, I forget which, then cleaned this off with some contact cleaner. (Belt & suspenders?)

Small amounts of lubricant afterward.

I have heard some Life-Like rebuilders mention the “peanut-butter” grease and I’ve come across this stuff, but not very often, and it isn’t usually caked up like some have described.

Something in that L-L lube must be slightly acidic or at least reactive with the copper component in the bearing.

Regards, Ed

20

That would explain the green colour. It seems the “grease” slowly petrifies as if some solvent component evaporates over time. The peanut butter stuff may be a different formulation?