I am interested in using signals on my N&W/Southern Railway layout. I am in the beginning stages of construction on the layout, so that should be helpful. I have built several control panels with green and red LED’s to indicate turnout position. I do not have the knowledge, ability, nor money to build a CTC panel. I am interested in trying to run trains in a prototypical manner and using signals to help me accomplish that end. However, I am not certain where to start. I do intend to use the target signals that N&W used. My problem is what kind of system to use. I use the Digitrax Empire Builder for DCC and the Tortoise switch machines for turnout control. I do not use a computer to interface with the layout (I am not very good with computers either). I was wondering if there was so kind of system that I could use that would have the trains “trip” the signals as the trains goes by them and then turns to yellow and green after the train has gone a certain distance. I need something that does not require a PhD in electrical engineering. Even a bachelors degree might be too much for an old guy like me. Suggestions, Please. Relate your own personal experiences with the Pros and Cons of what you have used. Thanks,
I have a couple of links for you.
This link is a fairly good starter for signals. It’s links cover almost everything from simple to computer controlled. It also shows where signals should be located on a track diagram.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzescsbb/HO_MRR/Signals/Signals_getting_started1.html
This next link will take you to a company that has just what you are looking for. Look for the products "Block Animator’ and “Signal Animator”.
http://www.logicrailtech.com/index.htm
Hope this helps.
Automatic block signals are located at the entrance to a block of track. You need some kind of train detection that outputs a signal Block Occupied/Block Empty. The blocks need to be long enough to hold a typical train and you need a detector for each block. For each block signal you need to realize the following logic
Red = This Block occupied
Yellow = This Block empty AND next block occupied.
Green = This block empty AND next block empty.
Detectors can sense current draw by the locomotive (the Twin Tee circuit). Twin Tee was designed back in the days of DC operation and I don’t believe it works with DCC. Or small permanent magnets on the rolling stock that open and close magnetic reed switches buried in the road bed, or optical sensors that either look at the ceiling lights and activate when the train shades them, or reflective Infrared (IR) types that shine a IR beam up thru the road bed and activate when the IR is reflected off the bottom of the train back into the sensor, or laser beams shining into photosensors that the train interrupts.
Electronics can be of the one-circuit-per-signal type which has inputs for this block occupied and next block occupied and has Red, Yellow, and Green outputs. Sometimes this circuit is combined into the train detector modules.
Or, you can obtain a digital input output (IO) card for a PC. Wire all the detectors and all the signals to the IO card and write a PC program that scans all the train detectors and sets the signals Red Yellow or Green as required. Old PC’s are cheap (my dump has a pile of them) and the needed IO cards are not terribly expensive.
Atlas makes a nice signal system. You don’t have to use their signals with their controls so you can purchase the detection and control boards seperatly. They connect together with modular telephone cables.
The Atlas signal system is easy to install and works just like the last gentlemen said. If you want to change the type of signal head then it can be a problem but not complex. the Atlas system is a common cathode system and all other more complex systems are all anode common. I contacted several companies and they said they could supply searchlight style signals and other designs with a a common cathode for about $1.00 extra for each signal. I will find the names and post them soon. Dick Foster Reno NV
Craig,
This is just one opinion, but, it follows the view of several of the great masters from the early days of the hobby.
Signaling is very complex even in its most basic forms. first, you should learn a little about prototype signals and how they control traffic.
Then, think about the possiblity of modeling interlocking signals, the signals used to control traffic at turnouts, crossovers, crossings, and junctions - rather than modeling block signals which basicly just space trains out on long stretches so they don’t run into each other.
Actually, interlocking signals are also block signals in most cases, but by focusing your signal system design on them, and eleminating other intermediate block signals, you can build a useful and prototypical signal system that will actually help you run the trains.
In many cases, on our model layouts, we don’t have long stretches of mainline, so only putting signals at turnouts and juctions (interlocking signals, also known as absolute signals) we can simplify some aspects of the wiring and make the signal actually tell the engineer useful information - is the route set correctly? Is the track ahead clear? and possibly - do I have clearance to proceed.
CTC like operation can be build into such a system without building a full fuctioning CTC panel. In fact there isa a good argument to be made for not building a full function CTC panel on all but the largest layouts.
If you undersand how a light switch works, and have patience, you can understand some simple wiring diagrams that would let you learn and wire such a system.
How do you plan to control the switch machines? I can give you some control diagrams that would intergrate the turnout controls and signaling all into one system using a single lighted pushbutton to select each route at a typical junction. This combined
Craig: Even though most of the information that has been given is great and mostly correct, I went back and re read your question and comments. As far as I am concerned the Signal Animator or the Atlas system would work fine in your situation. Not all of us are electrical engineers nor signal experts. It sounds like you want something that looks and operates somewhat in a realistic manor but not too complex. When you get into detection, switch control and all the other ramifications of signaling then the problem becomes more complex than most of us want to tackle. Dick in Reno
i used rob paisley’s op-amp detection circuit (search this forum for my previous posts). as for the logic, you can achieve a bi-directional 2-aspect (with distant signalling) with a single quad NAND gate, which keeps costs very very low. if you are interested, let me know. I have a circuit board design (with instructions) that’s working on my layout. Trev.
You cant have Prototype signaling without Approach aspects (yellow). The absence of yellow would have people asking me why I am modeling Christmas all year round.
There are some websites that have wiring diagrams and also give you the ability to build your own detectors, and signal controllers. If that is the part of the hobby you enjoy, then I would encourage you to go after it.
http://users.rcn.com/weyand/tractronics/articles/wwartcl/wwartcl.htm
David B
Tricky Trev, I am most definitely interested. Any information and help is greatly appreciated.
Digitrax has a “plug & play”
I haven’t had occasion to see this signaling system in action but know guys who have and they seemed pretty impressed with it. From what I understand it a fully inclusive system designed to pretty much give you everything you need. It’s limitations though are it seems to have been intended for use with N scale so if your running HO you would need to adapt signals to it and from what one of the guys told me he would do that even if running N. The Atlas system does seem impressive as well. I have a buddy who is a electronics expert and also a model railroader who has told me signaling operation is no big deal easy for him to say. He has offered to help me do my signaling on my layout. He didn’t have to ask me twice.
Dick in Reno You have hit the nail on the head. I need something that looks good and operates reliably but is not so complex that one needs a degree in electrical engineering. I have seen some of the Atlas system supplies at the local hobby shop but am not familiar with the Signal Animator. Who manufactures this product and is there a website I can visit?
Anyone have photos of signaling systems on their layouts? I would love to see some of them as would others.
I have a section that uses block signals. This is one of my brass signals. Drawing a blank on both the signal manufacturer and controls maker. Both are small shops.
logicrailtechnoligies.com good stuff
Hi Craig,
Here is a photo of a typical board installed in each signalling block (makes your DCC bus a bit segmented, but you cannot avoid that). I’m revising the detailed instructions (now 23 pages) to make some parts of the design clearer to the “general public” - not just us engineers.
This is NOT a plug & play signalling system, although digitrax’s isn’t either, although it claims to be…
Board size is around 25mm x 65 mm (1" x 2" for the imperial people…). LED’s are temporarily soldered on in this case just for the photo - in reality they go to the home and approach/distant signals at each end of the block: 1 board drives 4 signals!
The yellow is simply a duplicate of red, and there are two green outputs too. This is quasi-3-aspect signalling. ie. 2 aspect that looks like 3 aspect. The reason is that most layouts aren’t realistically big enough for a full-blown 3-aspect signalling system.
The stand-alone yellow LED is the detection status, so you can display it on a panel or CTC.
If you (or anyone else) want more details, then i will probably post more info online if demand is there.
Hope this helps!
Trev
As it has been pointed out the LogicTech site has all that you need for the Signal animator or other simplified control systems. The nice thing about Atlas is the simple interconnection between boards which gives a realistic operation after a train leaves a block. The Atlas will also work with bi-leds for target signals. Just a matter of changing a jumper pin. Also I understand that Tomar will make signals with common cathode for $1.00 more than their regular anode common signals. Call them to verify my information. Good luck Pix coming soon Dick
@gatefive: the Atlas system looks great, but have you seen the price??? quite expensive!! i did my bedroom size layout for about the cost of a decent loco or two…that’s all. trev.
As others have said, signaling is a complex subject. It all depends on how much you want to spend, and how much trouble you want to go to. I use signals as turnout indicators. A facing turnout will show either green for straight, or yellow for the diverging route. Coming from the other way, the signal will show either green, or red, if the turnout is set against the train. It’s not prototype, but neither is a model railroad. It looks good, and with a double track mainline, and a dozen turnouts and crossovers, not counting yards, it tells me which way every turnout is set. Running a yellow light is not a problem. Running a red light will cause a derailment. The only cost to me was a signal and an Atlas relay for each signal.
Sorry, just want to make a correction. Our website is www.logicrailtech.com. Thanks to those of you who suggested our products. 