PSX-AR Auto Reverser and Kato N Scale 20-210 Double Crossover - Wiring and Operation

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
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I want to run a PSX-AR with the Kato 20-210 Double Crossover and need some advice on how to wire this and get it set up.

I have a small DCC n scale layout that I’m building on a door (32"X80") with an NCE Power Cab controler. In essence, what I will have is two loops connected by the double crossover. So this isn’t the typical reversing loop that I’ve seen wiring diagrams for in that, depending on how the switch is thrown, it may reverse or it may not.

I was given the following advice but I’m not sure I trust the source, so I’m looking for some confirmation.

I was told to;

Isolate the double crossover at all four points of entry. This is done.

Run feeders to the double crossover at all four points of entry, inside the insulated connections, from the PSX-AR output, ensuring that polarity is maintained at all points. So, what I’ve done is brought all four negative feeder wires to a connector at a terminal block, and all four positive feeder wires to different connector on the same terminal block, then taken a wire from each of those connections to the output of the PSX-AR.

Run feeders to either side of the double crossover to power the two loops, ensuring that polarity is maintained at those points. This is done.

And this is where things rest for the moment before I put power to it from my Power Cab, because it just feels like there’s something being missed. I think my concern and confusion is the result of some things I’ve read and videos I’ve seen regarding the Kato Double Crossover. I get the impression that this is a weird little device and it’s got me concerned about running my one and only (and expensive) locomotive through this switch.

So, any help would be greatly appreciated!!

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[#welcome] to the forum. Your post was trapped in moderation, which goes away after a few posts.

I am not a double crossover specialist, but as I understand it, that is your reversing section. If that is true, a modest length train would be on either side of the crossover and violates the guideline that the reversing section should be longer than your longest train.

In theory the front wheels of the loco could trip the AR as it left the crossover, while wheels of a car further back would re-trip the AR while the engine was straddling the reversing and normal section.

I don’t know Kato and what makes their double crossover different. Don’t redo any wiring to my theory is confirmed or shot down.

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Further research on the Kato: The outside rails are contiguous, meaning you only need 2 feeders there. It is not power routing, so you need 4 inside feeders.

The way I have seen it done is that there is an AR for each of the loops after the double crossover.

That way you have plenty of track for your longest train.

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I agree with Henry. Each loop should have its own auto-reverser, and so each loop becomes a separate reversing section. When you have two end loops and a double crossover in the middle, either the top of the double crossover will match polarity with the track on either side of it or the bottom of the double crossiver will match polarity with the track on either side of it. But both the top and bottom of the double crossover will not match polarities with the adjacent tracks. For that reason, it is best to have each loop be a separate reversing section, not the double crossover.

Rich

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Thank you Henry!! It’s good to be here!

Yeah… I was aware it might take 24 hrs. to get it posted… no worries. I have nowhere to get to and all day to get there… lol!

Yes, the double crossover would be too short given the rules of engagement, but I can extend the two sections of track that the double crossover lies between to a length that is greater than my longest train.

I tried this with an On Guard Auto Reverser and just my locomotive to keep the train length within the length of the crossover. The result was less than encouraging… there was a great deal of delay and lag time as the loco was waiting for the polarity to reverse, or so it seemed. And I think that was because of how the crossover was thrown as the loco entered the crossover, and what the polarity needs were at that point, whether reversing it was required or not, and what the polarity needs were when it exited the crossover, and whether it needed to be reversed again. My hope was that the PSX-AR would respond quicker than the OG-AR and the lag could be resolved.

I spoke to a tech at Tony’s Trains and he recommended the same thing, AR’s on the loops, but I was hoping that there might be a way with the one PSX-AR that I have before buying another. I’m not opposed to buying another, I just want to make sure I’ve explored all of my options before doing so.

How can I post a jpeg of my layout so you guys can see what my intent is? Because, it just doesn’t feel like putting AR’s on the loops to either side of the crossover addresses all the possibilities.

Thanks!

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Thank you Rich! It appears that this is the answer, but I’d like to post a jpeg of my layout so you and Henry can see what I’ve got as there are turnouts, sidings, and a small yard that will be part of one of these loops. And I have some questions about those features if they’re part of one of the two reversing loops.

Can you tell me how to post that pic? I asked Henry too… I just don’t know who will see this firt.

Thanks in advance!
George

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No picture, but it sounds like a dog bone shape with a crossover in the middle. In that case, previous advice is correct, isolate each end loop, so you need two autoreversers, and then you can have as many crossovers in the shank part of the bone as you want with no additional reversers needed.

–Randy

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I’ve been informed that it’s a ‘folded dog-bone’…

Thank you for advice, it’s consistent with everything else I’ve been told.

George

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Randy,

I was hoping to follow-up with you on something you said in your previous re: having as many crossovers in the shank as I want without the need for more reversers.

I reached out to Tony’s Trains for some advice on another topic, but what I got back included a recomendation to create each of these reversing loops outside of, or to either end of, a series of turnouts, sidings, and a small yard, that exist in the layout.

So, in one configuration, the shank of the dog bone would contain all of these turnouts with loops at either end, but in another configuration the turnouts, sidings and yard would be contained within one of the reversing loops.

If I want to run other locomotives, like a switch engine in my yard for example, is having those features included in the reversing loop going to create a problem for me? Or should I, as the rep from Tony’s recommended, create my loops to either end of a much longer shank that contains those features?

Thanks in advance!
G

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Can you maybe draw out what you are thinking? Even scribbling it on a piece of paper and taking a picture with a phone would be better than nothing. It sounds like the basic idea is something like this post from almost 6 years ago:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/238329.aspx

15th post, first picture with the basic folded dog bone. I can’t directly post the picture as it comes from that user’s imgur account. My plan is similar except is stretches out over my entire basement and since I haven’t drawn the track plan for the upper level yet, there’s only one loop showing so it isn’t particularly helpful.

In my plan, the loops on the ends will be hidden track, and will consist of multiple concentric tracks that serve as my staging. I haven’t come up with a good reason NOT to just run it all off the reverser.

If instead of concentric loops for staging, this was visible track and I had sidings in here - I’m not quite getting the visual of sidings or a yard with the base turnout as part of the loop itself, as this would seem to severely limit the length of track. It still should be OK to have these tracks included as part of the reversing section - a loco switching these tracks will keep right on moving when another train enters the loop and triggers the AR.

It would seem to me that the better use of the open space inside the loop would be to have the turnouts on the shank with the tracks extending into the open middle of the loop. Extreme example, if the loop were really wide, would be a complete industrial park with sidings all over the place filling the middle of the loop. Second example would be if the engine facility, turntable, and roundhouse were inside the loop. Connections to the layout would be on the chank, the loop track would be nothing but the loop track and be insulated at both ends where it joins the shank and made the reversing section.

The second picture of the 15th post in the thread I li

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Hi Randy,

This is what I’ve got…

The idea being that the Red and Magenta sections are my reversing loops, keeping all of the turnouts in the shank.

But, the shank could also just be the double-crossover with reversing loops at either end of it. Then I’d have the Red reversing zone without any turnouts in it, and the Magenta zone would extend all the way to the other end of the double-crossover and include all of the turnouts.

The question that I’m not clear on is, if I’m running a second loco in the small switch yard at the bottom, should the reversing loops be configured as in the drawing, or with the shank of the dogbone being just the double-switch?

Or, does it matter?

I should probably also include this; all of my turnouts are non-power routing, but I am prepared to send feeders to each spur or siding as necessary. Which may create an issue I’m not considering with one or the other of these possible layout questions re: the reversing loops.

https://imgur.com/ZBG26KR

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For your reversers, keep the turnouts out of the isolated section.

On the magenta line: gap on the straight side of the turnout at the bottom, and gap just before the points of the turnout at the top.

On the red line, gap just past the double crossover on both tracks, where you have the red change to green.

For the rest of the doube track area, you just have to be careful to connect the proper bus lines. If you look at the bottom left, just before they split to go to the magenta loop, if the rail of the upper track closest to the top is your red feeder, then the rail at the top of the lower track is also red. That’s what allows you to have as many crossovers int he shank of the bone as you want without creating more reversing sections - the rails that connect with a crossover all have the same polarity.

–Randy

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Randy,

Okay… if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying to isolate the red and magenta lines as indicated in the attached… and apply power to them via my two PSX-AR’s inside of their respective gapped sections. Then, apply power to the green line via my PSX1 circuit-breaker.

This puts all of the turnouts in the shank, and none in either of the reversing loops.

https://i.imgur.com/ANSXdF7.jpg

This has all been done per what you’ve said… assuming that I’m understanding you correctly.

Furthermore, I have the polarity issues resolved for the rest of the entire layout; my white feeders are all on a particular rail, as are all of my black feeders. I have feeders already installed for all of the sidings and spurs, though they won’t get connected to power until I get the reversing loops working properly.

So, with my non power-routing turnouts, if I engage them in certain ways power is interrupted to certain areas of the layout, but so long as they are all thrown for operation on the main-line, it’s powered and I have voltage at all points along it, regardless of how the double-crossover is thrown and to either side of the gaps I’ve installed for the reversing loops.

Once I get the feeders for the spurs and sidings on the green line connected to power, I should have uninterrupted power with the proper polarity to all points of the green line no matter how the various turnouts are thrown.

So, first… if you can… let’s confirm that I understand you correctly and that what I’ve done is consistent with what you instructed.

Then, I have one other question…

The instructions in the PSX-AR manual indicate that the gaps in the rails for the reversing loops should be staggered approximately 3/4 of an inch so the wheels of the locomotive cross the gaps one side

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Thank you Henry! That’s much more convenient!

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I have to be missing something here. I don’t see that red track loop to be a reversing section.

Rich

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It is because of the crossover in the shank. This is just a dog bone twisted around - in a dog bone, the easiest way to do things is make the end loops the reversing sections, then there can be as many crossovers between mains as you want with no additional reverse sections introduced. Take out the double crossover and there are no reverse sections at all.

–Randy

–Randy

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[quote user=“PapaG”]

Randy,

Okay… if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying to isolate the red and magenta lines as indicated in the attached… and apply power to them via my two PSX-AR’s inside of their respective gapped sections. Then, apply power to the green line via my PSX1 circuit-breaker.

This puts all of the turnouts in the shank, and none in either of the reversing loops.

https://i.imgur.com/ANSXdF7.jpg

This has all been done per what you’ve said… assuming that I’m understanding you correctly.

Furthermore, I have the polarity issues resolved for the rest of the entire layout; my white feeders are all on a particular rail, as are all of my black feeders. I have feeders already installed for all of the sidings and spurs, though they won’t get connected to power until I get the reversing loops working properly.

So, with my non power-routing turnouts, if I engage them in certain ways power is interrupted to certain areas of the layout, but so long as they are all thrown for operation on the main-line, it’s powered and I have voltage at all points along it, regardless of how the double-crossover is thrown and to either side of the gaps I’ve installed for the reversing loops.

Once I get the feeders for the spurs and sidings on the green line connected to power, I should have uninterrupted power with the proper polarity to all points of the green line no matter how the various turnouts are thrown.

So, first… if you can… let’s confirm that I understand you correctly and that what I’ve done is consistent with what you instructed.

Then, I have one other question…

The instructions in the PSX-AR manual indicate that the gaps in the rails for the reversing loops should be staggered approximately 3/4 of an inch so the wheels of

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OK, so in the plan as drawn, the red loop is not a reverse loop. Since the magenta track is a single track reversing section, there is no place for a crossover. Thus, the only crossovers would be in the area of the double track (green) which is wired in phase. So, why would the OP isolate the red loop, add an auto-reverser, and treat it as a reverse loop when it is not a reverse loop?

Rich

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It is - trace around the red loop again and go through the crossover - you are back on the same track you came in on, going the opposite way. BOTH ends are reverse loops because of that crossover. Might be easier to imagine the crossover more in the middle of the green section instead of close to the red loop.

You can wire the green section out of phase, and make the crossover the reverse section, but that’s too short to be useful.

–Randy