being retired, i have time to stir things up a little on this forum. i just got up from my after breakfast nap so here goes. after reading some of these posts i have noticed that we are having something of a Chinese lottery. the winners get a $300.00+ locomotive that actually runs and does not need to be sent back for repair after running 10 or 15 feet.
given time, i am sure the manufacturers that actually care will get things worked out. (remember some of the early Korean junk?) but, it is like judgment day-i don’t doubt it will happen but probably not in my life time.
what set me off? nails!! i needed some 19 gage, flat head, track nails so i went to the local hardware store. little bubble packs for a dollar each was all they had. made in China. no problem. i bough a couple. most of them have a chisel tip instead of a point. obviously the stamping process was just a little off. i cut the bits of flash off with a pair of nippers and they were ok then. but why should i have to?
bottom line, if you can’t even buy a stinking nail that is made right, what do you expect if the item has one or more moving parts?
now that we can’t make anything in this country but babies, where do we go when the Chinese manufacturers get their act together? Antarctica? perhaps Mars. i hear the martians have a number between 6 and 7 that only they know about so nothing will fit.
As a kid, my parents always told me to pay the extra to get the quality. It was worth it. In todays world there are fewer and fewer quality items to spend the extra on.[sigh]
It took a couple of decades for Japanese manufacturers to convert Deming’s theories into results. That makes sense because it is hard to take a concept and put it into practice. The current issues in China make no sense to me, all they have to do is to copy what other manufacturers have done. They don’t have to go from theory to practice, just adapt the quality systems that Toyota, Sony, Matsushita, and other successful companies have in place.
I haven’t purchased track nails in several years, but I did purchase a single package of the black ones at that time…I don’t recall seeing even one that had a chisel tip. All were well formed.
But, in the spirit of the thread, I am not very happy about the complaints that keep cropping up in this and other forums about quality control problems…because I know the frustration involved in those who do have to send stuff back. I have had very good results in comparison, but I do worry about what appears to be a typical indifference on the part of the manufacturers, regardless of price range, to stem the tide of seacans arriving with what may be as much as 20% junk inside them. (A little hyperbole there…some of the “junk” has minor defects that can be repaired in seconds, but much of it is more serious.) I would want the Q2 from BLI to be the next best thing to a Movado watch, but I worry that we’ll hear no shortage of outcrying from unhappy buyers who report serious defects either in assembly or in engineering and metallurgy. I find it odd that the industry seems to accept the returns and requests for repair that it seems they must.
I also worry that an engine received which appears to be just fine is only four hours of use away from being packaged up because, although it runs well initially, something hidden is not quite right and will show itself in time. Will that be at 15 months, well outside the typical warranty?
Guess I need to throw in a couple of arguments. I have been doing business with the Japanese in their early years in Europe and also with the Chinese more recently.
The Asian culture is based on copying. It starts with writing and ends with product piracy. No Chinese will ever understand why the western world makes such a big fuss about them “stealing” proven designs and copying products. They see it as an honor to those who originally invented it.
The Japanese started their development in the very early 1900´s, the Chinese just recently. To make a successful copy, you need to understand the why´s and the how´s. And here is where the Chinese are extremely lacking. Their workers are unskilled, untrained and unknowing about the product´s use. In addition to that, the willingness to learn is somewhat hampered, as the basic understanding is still “be happy, that we can supply so cheaply” (I like the double meaning). As long as that prevails we will have to complain about product quality.
There are a number of businesses that are quite successful in their sourcing strategy in China. They all have established extensive QC systems, nibbling away their margins.
I don´t blame the Chinese for producing poor quality, I blame greedy importers letting the customer do the job.
I think Sir Madog has it right; its not the people who make it, its the importers who allow/accept the poor quality. They have the ultimate say if a product makes it to the consumer. This could be from stuff made anywhere, not just China.
Note that all the companies you specifically named are Japanese!
Thanks to history and cultural bias, the Chinese would sooner raze the Hidden City and nuke Shanghai than copy ANYTHING from a Japanese company.
If you don’t think that the Han Chinese are the top of any heap you care to name, a short conversation with one will quickly change your mind. In this respect, you can tell one, but you can’t tell him much.
Happily, that same bias prevents the Chinese from manufacturing anything of Japanese prototype…
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with made-in-Japan rolling stock)
As others have said the fix is known - and no, it is not test running every locomotive before shipment. Fixing quality problems requires getting the quality of your materials consistent, making your manufacturing processes consistent, and designing to improve the consistency of all your processes. The real goal is to increase the likelihood of the thing working properly without inspection at the tail end.
There are precious few who really believe in process improvement instead of “inspecting in quality” or “you get what you pay for”. And remember, model locomotive manufacturers are generally not the world’s leading manufacturing process engineers. Rather, most of the model railroad industry genius lays in being able to accurately reproduce in minature, or give the feel of having accurately reproduced in miniature - in one off or small quantities.
The small quantities are real killers when it comes to getting consistent components and parts. Except for Kader/Bachmann (and maybe not them, either), no manufacturer has enough production to justify designing a physically small, low RPM, high torque electric motor specifically for model locomotives. Instead, most manufacturers have to beg motors at reasonable prices from companies who have far more important other customers. Is there any wonder why a certain percentage of motors are poor performers from when the box is o
I don’t want to sound like an Old Fart who is stuck in the “Good Old Days” syndrome, but I remember when a locomotive purchase kinda/sorta came with an unspoken expectation that the buyer would be the one getting it to run like a Swiss watch, the manufacturer had done its job in assembling it.
But then, getting into the locomotive to fine-tune it was a relatively simple operation. Three or four screws, the boiler assembly lifted off and there was the ‘guts’–a motor, shaft and gearbox. You had one of three choices–or at the most all three–to ‘troubleshoot.’ You knew immediately that you would have to ‘tinker.’ Runs noisy? Three more screws, an unassembled gearbox. Ahah! No lube. Motor surge? Hmm, they forgot to put in an extra washer on the worm shaft. Ran with the boiler assembly off but not on? Ahah, raw wire from the motor touching the inside of the firebox assembly. Get out the electrical tape.
Clicked? Run it on a piece of glass with the gearbox off and see which of the eccentric gear was hanging up. A drop of oil. No click. With time and patience, you could usually end up with a pretty smooth running loco.
But these were pretty easy and direct fixes, because the mechanisms were pretty easy and direct. These days, getting INTO the locomotive with all of the hidden screws and pressure points can amount to a nightmare in itself, and then finally getting into the inside of it, what are you faced with? Basically, the inside of a computer, LOL!
Now I love all the sound, bells, whistles, chuffs and other goodies associated with todays imported plastic locomotives, but for me, just trying to find out what might be a relatively SIMPLE fix m
Yesterday I operated the layout for the first time in several months. The last time there were no derailments except when I had a turnout in the wrong position, but yesterday it was one derailment after another always at a turnout.
To keep this short the trouble was with some “premium cars” of various manufacturers causing the trouble. I finally made up a train with all Kadee cars and everything was fine. I always try to buy the best so that I don’t have to make the necessary adjustments as my abilility to do so is limited.
Again we hear the cries. When every thing was kits there was no expectation of perfect running right out of the box. Like others have said, You had to work at it. The RTR folks that expect it to work right out of the box probably have never used a screw driver or trip pin pliers. Most like some in our club open the box and set it on the rails. Not checking coupler height, wheel gauge, trip pin height, and truck swivel. They are the ones wondering how I can get a 60 car freight around the modules with out a derailment. Before I personally put a piece of rolling stock on the rails it gets checked and rechecked. All my locomotives get serviced and checked out before an operating session. I expect a RTR locomotive to be assembled only. I will fine tune it and tweak the decoders, Couplers, and check wheel gauge before it goes into service.
Nothing is made in the US anymore. Things are assembled here but not made. Cheap labor!! Some one once said “There is nothing more expensive than cheap labor.”
Sorry I know it hurts to hear this. Blame it on society. We have become so lazy we need a remote control for our car stereo that’s 1 foot away. When was the last time you saw a customer return a shopping cart to the store instead of leaving in the lot? When was the last time you walked to the corner store that’s only a block away? When was the last time you went fishing or hunting for dinner instead of opening a package? We expect some one do things for us instead of doing things for our self.
Having been in the hobby for many decades, I had to put in my two cents…
The Lionel I bought in the '50s, and the Athearn I bought in the '60s were outstanding examples of quality and quality control. Both companies met my expectations and set up a bar by which others would be measured. Ha, coincidently, both companies manufactured in the good ol USofA!
And after that, Lionel started manufacturing in Mexico in the late '60s (early '70s?), and eventually Athearn went overseas. In the meantime, we were blessed with various foreign built HO stuff during the '70s/'80s, that was a mixture of good/bad quality and good/bad value - depending.
Personally, I got hit with a BLI loco without a sound unit installed (it is a Paragon, which includes sound) that “slipped by” at the factory in China. And then, after a longggg wait, I got that Rapido baggage car, lettered for “Central Illinois”. Now both of these items are considered to be “high quality”, and yes, the importers fixed the problems, but there is just no excuse for that kind of situation to exist.
When Lionel and Athearn built in America, they had every unit checked before it went in the box! But apparently that is either too costly or “not proper” for some of today’s manufacturers.
Quite frankly, it ticks me off to send my money overseas in the first place, but it adds insult to injury to get a faulty item in return.
This is the point–as long as the importer does not even TRY to address this QC issue—after all, it is still under their control as they DID contract( note Bowser—) out the mfg to someone else. If they cut the QC corner to make their margins that much higher then I’ll suggest that these importers must be on the verge of failure ----period
Simon, guess I am a screamer. When you where over remember me telling your sons not to run that engine, it has problems?
Far as Not Made In The United States stickers we all see now, it is our fault! I guess it was the mid 80’s the battle cry Buy Made In The USA was started. But Us customer blew it off. If I just buy one Japanese made TV, what would that hurt? It is only one! Every one else will buy Made In The USA TV.
I think Athearn was the last to give in around 2007. That was when I saw made in the US was missing on there kit boxes and Proto 2000 wheels would not fit. On the other hand Kadee #5 are at the right height?
I don´t recall when that cheapo-mania started, but it must be over 10 years ago now. First it was the manufacturers aiming at harvesting extra profits by moving production to cheap labor countries (and that´s not only China), then it was the customers demanding their share. Products got cheaper and cheaper, in the double meaning of the word. Strange thing - we rather pay 500 $ for something not working 100% and complain, instead of paying 600 $ and getting something that works like a Swiss watch. It´s the Trix Mikado vs. the BLI Blueline issue…
In an ideal modeler´s world we would be running Trix locos over Peco track and turnouts, pulling AccuRail cars in a scenery made out of Busch materials. This list is by no means complete, there are still many other fine manufacturers around - but for how long?
We cannot expect quality and are not willing to pay for it. Quality product cost their money - regardless of where they are manufactured. There are already a number of businesses that have started to understand - and are re-relocating their production…
I’m getting real tired of having to fix brand new stuff.[banghead] Even paying more $$$ for higher quality just gets you more expensive imported crap. The statement “quit shopping at Wal Mart” doesn’t hold true anymore since Sears, Target, Kohls, and other higher end stores sells the same exact stuff for higher prices.[xx(]
Been doing some work at a clothing importer. They get in loads of $10 mens suits in from China, change the labels and send them out to all the high end cloths stores that sell them for $400. This is one of the largest cloths importers in the country getting away with this!
This is nothing more than corperate greed destroying our country. The company that makes Oreo cookies sells them here for $4/package. Yet they can export these same cookies to China and only charge 75 cents over there. So why are they $4 here???[%-)]
An Atlas rep recently told me they are thinking about moving their production out of China due to quality issures.
It’s all trade offs. When the company loses enough sales because of poor quality they fix the problem or move the production to another country. Like wise for us, we buy cheap until it’s so bad we switch brands and pay more for better quality. Unfortunately, along the way we get burned by companies selling poor quality at good quality prices. And the importers get burned by manufacturers who can’t deliver the quality they paid for. Since we shop mostly by price I doubt the situation will change much.
Then you have companies that trade on their reputation charging for quality as they cheapen their product until they have milked it into the ground. My favorite brand of dress shoes has finally gone to a cheap enough country that I won’t buy them anymore - it took a couple of moves but their reputation is now shot with me.
I remember buying a Lionel set for my kids in the 70’s - I hadn’t realized that they had gone down hill to junk until I set the train up under the Christmas tree. The freight car trucks only had one wheelset each, the locomotive was mostly plastic, the operating accessories could not be assembled so they worked reliably. Fortunately, someone finally bought the company and worked on restoring it’s quality and reputation. The New York Central Flyer my wife bought for me a few years ago is much better than the 70’s junk. (I’m not into Lionel, toy trains or O, but hey she’s trying.)
… this is just fraud! And if the law cannot take care of that, the customer should do! The crazy thing is that in most cases we do not even know where a product is manufactured until we buy it. I still wait for our legislation to pass a law forcing all importers to decare the country of origin in all advertising, thus giving us a chance to decide.