I know that shay’s were used in the loggin industry for the purpose of climbing steep grades into the mountains for logging timber. My question is this. How steep of a grade will todays model shays pull. I am modeling ho, and would only be pulling 3 to 4 log cars at a time. To be able to utilize the space I want to use for a loggin line would require somthing like a 8 or 9 percent grade. I dont have a shay yet, but plan on getting one in the near future. Before I start doin any construction to put in the logging line, would like to know if todays shays can make the grade (pun intended). thanks for any help you can give. Also, I am running dcc if that makes any difference.
I have a brass three truck shay that would not like 9%. I have a Spectrum two truck climax, similar to a shay, that might. I have no more than 6%. If you could get it back a few degrees, you might have better luck.
It’s best to make a test run. Take you Shay and your cars and run a straight track up an 8’ board. Increasing lift the end of the board until the Shay can’t make it. Each inch will equal about one percent climb. Once you find the maximum back off a percent or a percent and a half to allow for curves.
Take the guesswork out of it.
You can always emulate the Mower Lumber Company, now the Cass Scenic Railway, and run double-headed Shays. I have one video that shows them running a triple-header with 2 Shays and a Climax, but I think that was just for the cameras.
My experience with the non-geared HO steamers is that they really work hard at or above 3%. They are okay, generally, with 3-6 cars, depending on the loco and the type of car, but if you want to pull 20 properly weighted cars, you will almost certainly have to double-head. As examples, the little P2K 0-6-0 is good for about three box cars up my 3% grade, but it is iffy. Add a fourth and you have problems. Then, with Walthers heavyweights, I can barely pull five of them plus a reefer up that same grade with a BLI 4-8-4. The Duplex 4-4-4-4 is marginally better, but I can sometimes hear the vibration of the drivers scrubbing the railtops as they slip a bit.
As Mouse says, there is no better way to ensure success than by testing it out beforehand and finding your limits.
There IS a concept called “compensated grade”. The more the curve, the less the grade. So for instance if an engine can pull a 4% straight grade, then it can probably pull a 3% medium curve grade (true for my N scale layout). My 4% straight grades are equal to my 3% curves. And my later trackwork is better is better than my earlier trackwork, which also matters. Also, when my little Atlas Shays were new they pulled better now than when broken in. Same with my 2-4-0 Athearns.
So, you have to experiment. And experiment with curves you will use as they make a difference. My N scale, Colorado mountain layout has a max of 6% grade (on a parrallel siding just for fun) with a mainline max of 4% on the straights and 3% on the grades.
Consisting is BEST with DCC and matching the engines. DC engines can be consisted if they run nearly identical, but again, over time, things change.
I really get a kick out of watching my little steam engines try and make it up my steep grades with trains longer than they should be. But be aware, if you have rubber traction wheels and you spin, you leam rubber on the tracks. I use a plastic safe electrical cleaner to clean my track, then rub the track down with wood.
My steepest puller is my little Bachman trolley. THEY GO UP STEEP STUFF! Of course they have no couplers. I don’t have any experience with grades steeper than 6%, but there might be some engines that can go up a little steeper than 6%. I’d be suprized if they made it up 9% though. I hear the HO Bachman Trolleys run well also.
If you are having trouble getting what you need in HO, try N scale. Not as much available, but the Athearn 2-4-0 and the Atlas Shay and the Bachman Spectrum 2-8-0 are all good pullers in N scale steam. I have DCC in my Atlas Shay and I hear the Bachman Spectrum can be DCC’d, aftermarket, though not sure by who.
Have fun!
this is a diagram of what I am trying to do. I have included the height measurements. as well as length of run I have to climb to get to the 2nd level I am trying to utilize for a logging line. I may not be figuring the grade right. maybe this will give you an idea. forgive the crudeness of the diagram, I just did a quick job of it in microsoft paint. It may not be possible to do what I am trying to do. any ideas would be heplful. A helix is out of the question as I dont have room for one. If this wont work, let me know. It was just an idea to try and get more out of the little space I have. thanks for any help.
Thanks, that helps. Would you then consider using a switchback? That way, you get to ramp twice, but you can halve the grade you need on each ramp, or close to that…you need a level reversing segment halfway up which will cut into the useful grade. So, instead of one ramp @ 22%, which appears to be about what you are showing, you could get it down to two ramps near 13% each, or do it in three stages and it’ll be about 9%. No matter what, though, you have a huge challenge…huge…unless you forget the second level, or add another 10’ of useful bench.
The way you have drawn it, it wont work. I get 24"/11’ 7" = a whopping 17% and the real thing would be even steeper, not to mention, the transition needed. Nope, wont work. Back to the drawing board. With your 11’ and a 4% grade you can get up only 5 1/4". I have 10’ and was able to only get 8 1/2" and this was by going there and back (actually 20’+). That is 3%, which with the curves it has is plenty steep. I COULD go to 4%, my trains would have to be quite short and I would have to consist. 6% is doable with an engine only and maybe one or two cars. Get realistic. Keep it at 4% on the straights and 3% on the curves and even then, you will have to consist! You could do a 6% FUN grade that is not on the main for entertainment watching the engines try. If you really need that other shelf that high, just make it independent and transport the trains via your hands or maybe an elevator. Sorry, you can only do so much in the real world.
Are you sure you don’t have room for a helix. A shay can make a 12" curve. That would work out to about a 5% grade.
Also, you could get by with 18" between decks.
Your best solution, and most prototypical, would be to climb using a series of switchbacks. Determine what your typical train length will be and that will determine the length of track needed at the end of the switchback to clear the turnout and continue on the next track segment. Using a switchback may require slightly more additional horizontal room, but this can be handled by having the tracks climb and cross over each other.
jktrains
How is this post on topic??? The OP had to do with model geared locomotives and what grade they can handle. Who cares what your regular steam locos can pull up grade! Completely off topic. [#offtopic] The question dealt with geared locos. As mentioned in other posting topics, this is what causes serious questions in topics to die - off topic replies just for the sake of replying! If you can’t stick to the topic - DON’T POST!![banghead]
rant over [soapbox]
We have been looking at the “problem” of getting one level to the other.
The “problem” that I see is that no matter how you get from one level to the other, you are using your best, largest layout space to gain a smaller space which is higher that what is comfortable, and over a space that is lower than comfortable and must be lighted.
The way I see it. You’ll get more, better functioning layout on one level.
Thanks for all the input guys. I really appreciate it. I wasn’t sure this would work to start with. I will try and figure out another way to add my loggin line without the grade. This is my first layout, so I was trying to get as much into it as possible, without cramming to much into one area. To me scenery is more important than cramming a lot of track in one area. Oh well, back to the drawing board. again thanks for the replys, I am sure as new ideas pop up, I wil have more questions.
[:)] …feel better? It is entirely on topic because the forum deals with toy trains…and so as not to insult the OP, who is sure to realize that there is nothing so special about geared toy trains, which they all are inside, that even “regular” steamers can have their problems with grades that are too steep. It is not a question just about geared locomotives, but also about grades; hence my response that grades are what matters most, and that he should deal with that aspect of his plans by tes
I know this is late in the conversation, but I thought that I should add our experience.
We have a MDC 2-truck shay to which my husband installed an NWSL regearing kit. It will happily push 4 loaded skeleton cars and 3 loaded disconnects up a 6% grade. Under normal conditions, they would be empty going uphill, but we were testing the loco.
I might add. We have discovered that keeping the track clean has been important for traction on the 6%.
Sue
[quote user=“selector”]
[:)] …feel better? It is entirely on topic because the forum deals with toy trains…and so as not to insult the OP, who is sure to realize that there is nothing so special about geared toy trains, which they all are inside, that even “regular” steamers can have their problems with grades that are too steep. It is not a question just about geared locomotives, but also about grades; hence my response that grades are what matters most, and that he should deal with that asp
To answer your questions:
Most model Shays (or Climax’s) are equivalent to small diesels in grade capability, but are actually geared lower. This means that almost all model Shays have sufficient torque to the drive wheels to move anything that wheel slip will allow. Factors that have real impact on the ability to climb grades are:
- weight of model divided by number of drive wheels. A model 2 truck Shay that weighs the same as a model 3 truck Shay will outperform the 3 truck Shay on grades.
- driver wheel tread material makes a bigger difference than people think. Steel is better than brass is better than nickel plated. Brass is much more difficult to keep clean, both visually and electrically.
- rail material also makes a difference. Again, steel is better than brass is better than nickel silver. Again, brass takes significantly more cleaning effort.
- smoothness of drive. If there is a hitch in the mechanism, the grade-climbing ability will be reduced.
Most geared steam models will easily handle 5% grades with a few cars (some brass models may be an exception). A few will do 8% with 2-3 cars. Because of the above guidelines, of the no
JK:
Even though I see your point, I think this qualifies as a “rant” which have been so frequent recently that there have been threads posted complaining about the increasing number of them. There isn’t any golden rule that every thread comment can only pertain to the specific subject listed in the heading. I personally liked reading about selector and other’s experience with the grade pulling power of other steamers, and I feel that most other forum members agree with this and not your criticism.
Jim
[quote user=“jktrains”]
[quote user=“selector”]
[:)] …feel better? It is entirely on topic because the forum deals with toy trains…and so as not to insult the OP, who is sure to realize that there is nothing so special about geared toy trains, which they all are inside, that even “regular” steamers can have their problems with grades that are too steep. It is not a question just about geared locomotives, but also about grades; hence my response that grades are what matters most, and that he sh