Would Grand Trunk Western passenger trains ever include any Canadian National passenger cars?
If so, would any Canadian National passenger cars be found on Grand Trunk Western passenger trains at Dearborn Station in Chicago in the 1950’s?
Thanks.
Rich
yes
Thanks, rws1225, for that “yes” answer. I had hoped for more, but at least that answer inspired me to research the issue even more.
I did find some information on the Rapido Trains Inc. web site that indicated different car assignments from 1956 to 1961 in which CN passenger cars were added to GTW passenger trains headed to Chicago including the Maple Leaf, the Inter City Limited, the International Limited, and the LaSalle.
Here is that link:
http://www.rapidotrains.com/schemes_ho/cn5.html
Rich
Only answered briefly because I remember watching trains in the early 60s in Royal Oak MI with some CN head end cars and sometimes coaches. At that time there were also commuter trains but they were all GTW heavy weights.
I know that another CN US-subsidiary, the Duluth Winnepeg and Pacific, often used CN cars and locomotives on their passenger trains. There were some limitations re crossing the border, I believe a CN car or engine coming from Canada had to be returned to Canada within 24 (or 48?) hours.
As I recall the DWP had an SW-7 CN switcher that was assigned to (I think?) Virginia Minnesota for many years, but it was OK to stay in the US because it was built by GM in the US rather than GMD in Canada.
I can’t give any specific details, but there were through sleepers from Canada (Toronto and probably Montreal) in that era and I think it almost certain that some would have been lettered for CN. Some of those may also have small Pullman stencils. I’m sure other types of cars (diners, baggage, coach, parlour) would also be in the international pool, but don’t know details.
John
GTW did not have any sleepers so any sleeper on a CN/GTW through train would be CN. Every once in a while you would see some CN head end cars on the Maple Leaf, International Limited and the Intercity Limited, usually express refers. While I have not seen CN coaches on these trains it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Dinners were GTW and usually did not cross the border, they were pulled off in .
I hope that this helps.
Steve
Steve,
That is very interesting. Thanks for posting that info.
Rich
Rich,
Not that I am an expert or anything of the sort, I just have some good sources. I was glad I could help you a little.
Steve
I used to take the La Salle from Port Huron to Chicago in the early 60’s. CN sleeper Green Bush (#501) was the Green & Black car used in this Chicago-bound train. Rapido made this car last year. Hope this helps. Do some deeper sleuthing; there are folks out there that have made it their “niche” by focussing on this particular train.
After posting that thread back in 2011, I purchased 5 Rapido passenger cars to build the Inter City Limited from Port Huron to Chicago.
Two of the cars were GTW parlor cars, Silver Lake and Diamond Lake, and three of the cars were CN sleepers, Greenshields, Green Point and Green Bush.
Rich
Usually this was a 24 US rule. If it operated continuously in the US - There were tax implications. The DW&P’s passenger train operated as a ‘turn’ out of Ft Francis, and the entire train was back in Canada within 24 hours. The steam passenger train was replaced by a DW&P RDC-3.
IIRC, NW2 #7902 was lettered for Canadian National, but was originally a GTW engine, so it may have been exempt.
The Soo Line also used CP passenger cars on the Soo-Dominion and Winnipeger. I have even seen a pair of CP passenger GP7’s at St Paul Union Depot.
Jim
Good stuff. The La Salle got me into Dearborn pretty early the next morning. I had to catch the Rocky Mountain Rocket out of the La Salle St station later that afternoon.
That consist you put together, was that the newer post white CN sided cars? Also, the train I took was in 1961, green and black. Do you know if the motive power used GP9’s or FP’s? The Pinkepank book shows GTW 4900’s. I’d like to follow your lead and pair up a power unit correct to that early 1961 era.
The five passenger cars are matching green and black, two GTW and three CN, all from Rapido.
My motive power is a pair of Intermountain F3A’s.
From my limited research, I have not been able to determine whether this was an exact reproduction of the prototype. But, I had little choice with what was available out there in HO scale at the time that I was building this train.
Rich
As far as I know these trains were power by GP-9’s until the late 60’s. The F-3’s that the GTW had were freight units that were used on passenger specials every once in a while but not on regular trains.
Steve
Bummer.
But, I wanted some GTW/CN passenger cars and some GTW motive power, so I had no choice but to grabs those two F3’s when and where I could find them.
Rich
Rich,
The rumor mill has it that in the not too distant future there will be some GTW GP-9’s coming out in HO so you may be ok. Not sure if they will be Green and Gold or Black and Red but either would be good 1961.
Steve
Steve,
Any idea who the manufacturer of the GTW GP-9’s might be?
The other difiiculty with modeling GTW passenger trains is the absence of GTW passenger cars.
Rich
Very true. My April 29, 1962 GTW Timetable lists the westbound train out of Toronto to Chicago (the La Salle) as having the Green Bush 6-6-4 sleeper and coaches, with a diner being dropped at Port Huron. Made sense, since all dining was over by the time the train reached Port Huron at around 10:00PM. Probably wouldn’t be all that unusual to have a GTW marked coach or two in that consist although the bet would be CN coaches. Either way would be correct, whatcha think?
Rich,
I have heard that Athearn was interested in doing a run. I know people who have supplied photos and drawings to them. We’ll have to see if it happens or not.
Now as far as passenger cars go there are some really nice brass kits out there. http://www.nkpcarco.com/ makes four GTW kits. Also BGR group makes all kinds of resin CN kits http://home.cogeco.ca/~bgrgroup/ Plus Athabasca Shops makes GTW and CN cars http://www.athabascashops.com/
None of these are cheap, but they are nice kits and make a really nice looking train.
Steve