Last week I was up in the Manitowoc, WI area and noticed the old C&NW tracks that run roughly parallel to U.S. 43 North of Milwaukee and up through Manitowoc and on to Green Bay. The condition of the tracks up through Sheboygan look good (I assume because they handle coal trains bound for the generating plant there) but I would be curious about the level of traffic on this line North of Sheboygan on to Green Bay. Is there any traffic on that section of the line and is this the line being considered by Amtrak for future passenger service or rather is the line through Fon du Lac, Oshkosh and Appleton (etc.) the one being considered for passenger service (I assume the latter is the case due to much heavier population density). Thanks to all who can shed some light on both questions above.
Good morning,
The line from Milwaukee to Sheboygan to MTWC was the first built, but then it ran over to the Appleton area, then to Green Bay (approx 1907). A few years later, the MTWC - Green Bay leg was built. This was called the Lakeshore Line. The 2nd leg (MILW - Fond du Lac - Oshkosh - Appleton - Green Bay) was also built a few years later. That was called the Airline. Traffic ran both lines over the years. I read an interesting story from circa 1950 of 80 MPH diesel streamliners running the Lakeshore route.
During the 80’s / 90’s, the latter period of CNW days, they embargoed Oshkosh to FDL. Oshkosh traffic ran north to Green Bay, then back south along the lake. At that time, Milw - FDL ran as a branch. When CNW spun parts of this route to The Fox River Valley RR, FRVR ran GB - Oshkosh - FDL - Milw as their main line. FRVR ran GB - MTWC as a turn and ran a little south of MTWC to a few industries. CNW kept Milw - Sheboygan to run the coal trains. That’s became UP trackage and still operates that way. From Milw - Sheboygan, the track is pretty good. North of Sheboygan, it gets not so good. UP owns up to the Sheboygan / MTWC county line. CN owns north of there to Rockwood, which is approx 5 miles North of MTWC. The line is cut there and was abandoned perhaps 8 yrs ago by CN, up to Denmark. The island at MTWC is reached via the Neenah - MTWC branch. Denmark is still served via the Green Bay - Denmark branch, as needed. CN runs Green Bay - Appleton - Oshkosh - FDL - Chicago now as the main line. CN also cut the FDL - Milw line. I believe that FDL - Eden is now gone, but part of the line remains from Milw, north to West Bend and perhaps Eden.
CNW / FRVR
Jim,
Re: Amtrak, since the Lakeshore line is shaky from Sheboygan to the north and is cut north of MTWC to Denmark and is again shaky from Denmark to Green Bay, all of the dialogue is related to the CN line from Chicago (Metra) - Burlington - Fondy - Oshkosh - Appleton - Green Bay - Duck Creek - Howard-Big Suamico-Little Suamico-Pensaukee-Oconto, Peshtigo… (well - ok, just to Green Bay.)
Over and out…
Yes, the tracks are removed in West Bend (I’m not sure how far north of Milwaukee they still go), and the tracks south from Fond du Lac thru Eden are gone.
Eden Hill was a real pain, because when travelling westbound (north), the absolute signal in Fond du Lac was right at the bottom of the hill around a curve (this was in the days before dynamic braking made the engineers’ job so much easier). There was also a significant hill when heading north towards Fond du Lac; on the CNW we called it “Whitehouse Hill” because near the crest of the hill the was, you guessed it, a white house. This hill was not as steep as Eden, but it had lots of reverse curves and was longer than Eden hill.
Wouldn’t a connection at Duplainville work? It would certainly be practical in terms of meaningful service.
There is one; it is in the northeast quadrant of the interlocking area.
Well, that’s perfect–it would be fairly easy to route the Amtrak trains from Milwaukee to Fond du Lac and Green Bay.
Zardoz-
The ex-CNW Air Line is still in from Fond Du Lac down to Eden- the CN stills runs a wayfreight down there to serve a few small industries in town and a gravel pit north of there. Between Eden and West Bend the line has been torn out. The line is still serviced on the south end by the CN’s L507 local- which also services the ex-MILW Saukville Sub. On the north end the line’s local is L509 out of North Fond Du Lac.
Thanks to each of you for some really useful and very interesting information…we’ll all be watching (I’m sure) to see what Amtrak does in the years to come.
How does the CN access the line? I know that the bridge and tracks I used to (IIRC) run over to get in to FDL from Milwaukee are no longer there (the ones that head southeast just south of Scott street).
Zardoz,
The tracks in downtown Fond Du Lac have been torn out by the WC/CN- to facilitate getting to the old Air Line they have built a flyover connection on the south side of town very near where the old “original” main line to Clyman and Janesville (NW Junction) split just north of US 41 and crossed the Soo. I can’t think of the name that the CN refers to it by off the top of my head- but it’s a little “S” curve type arrangement that snakes over to the old Air Line from the ex-Soo main.
Hi all,
Answering several points…
Eolafan, on the Shoreline, UP ownership ends a little north of Haven. There’s a lumber yard there that gets occasional carloads of wood. There are a whole mess of stored TTX flatcars north of there, sitting forlorn on the main in the weeds.
Somewhere north of there (the Sheboygan/Manitowoc county line, according to Doublestack) begins CN ownership. There’s a short (maybe about 100 feet or so) section of ripped-out rail in Cleveland, apparently to ensure a CN train can’t go any further south. And of course the line is ripped up north of Manitowoc, so an Amtrak route through there would be next to impossible.
Zardoz, the tracks were removed in West Bend a few years ago, with Rusco Road now being the north end of track. I like to call the thrice-weekly train the “Rusco Road 400” in honor of the CNW heritage of the line.
Carl, a few years ago, back when Amtrak Mail & Express was a thriving entity (or appeared to be), plans were drawn up to extend a Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawatha train north to Fond du Lac. It would head west out of Milwaukee on CP (like the Empire Builder), then hang a right at Duplainville to head north on CN. Amtrak even printed timetables featuring the new service, with a starting date to be announced. Apparently CN was never really “on board” with that program, Mail & Express withered away, and the plan was dropped. It would have been cool if Amtrak service was extended to FdL, but even more cool if it got as far as Oshkosh, Appleton and Green Bay.
Photos!
A
Mike,
Thanks for the info.
BTW, I followed the link you provided, and discovered you have a very nice web site with some excellent photos.
Maybe this belongs on the Model Railroader part of the forum, but IMHO the best way to railfan this line is to get an invite to Rich Hanke’s basement. This Manitowoc WI modeler, who is also the “answer man” for the C&NW Historical Society’s magazine, has an astoundingly accurate depiction of nearly the entire line on his model railroad. He has visited nearly every on-line town, siding, and business, found old photos hanging on walls that he is allowed to copy, talks to neighbors for memories and photos, and then scratchbuilds accurate replicas. He even has that interesting little country cemetery carved out of the woods where the mourners have to cross the rails to get to the gravesites.
Dave Nelson
Mike, thanks for the information and clarification/update to what had been posted earlier. I too think Amtrak would have a hit if they initiated service north of Duplainville to Green Bay…what with the heavy population centers in (among others) Green Bay, Appleton, Oshkosh, Fond Du Lac, etc.
We all know how frugal and financially conservative Wisconsinites can be and I am sure this would lead to good ridership levels.