I was going to post another train blocking question to a new topic but realized that this thread was pretty close. Please pardon me for hijacking a month-old thread.
How is the thru-train blocked in this scenario? Are the setouts for the local yard always behind the locomotive and the pickups always tacked in before the caboose? I’ve yet to hear/read anyone specificy that.
I’m modeling a junction yard on a Southern Pacific mainline in the 1940’s and I’m sketching out my yard operating scheme. Based on the tonnage I want my manifest trains to have, I’m wondering what they will look like in my junction yard when making their stops.
Through freights would (normally, one can probably always find exceptions) be blocked in station order, too. A through freight that had a block for an intermediate yard would have it behind the engine. Upon arrival at the yard, they would make the set out. Then the engine would go over to the track the pick up was on, placing it behind the engine.
On some railroads if a set out required holding onto cars that were going through, the working agreements called for an arbitrary payment (like an extra hour’s pay, etc.) to be paid to the crew. That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t done. Just something that a railroad might try to avoid.
The same procedure still holds true today. Although with some of the larger manifests today, rear end pick ups and set outs are being done. Of course it’s easier to move an EOT device than a caboose.
I don’t know if it’s prototypical, but that is exactly what I do on my layout. Had some actual pro railroaders up for an Ops session and they never said a word.
It depends somewhat on what the rest of the manifest train looks like. What other blocks are on the train?
Generally the blocks will be in order on a train in the order they will be set out. Pick ups will generally be in block. The place a block sets out may not have anything to do with where the cars themselves actually go.
However things may be different if at train sets out and picks up multiple blocks.
The following train, No 101, runs from East to West:
Eng-AAA-BBB-CCC-DDD-Cab
The following train, No 203, runs from South to North:
Eng-bbb-aaa-ddd-ccc-Cab
Both lines cross at Junction.
At Junction No 101 sets out BBB-CCC and picks up aaa-ddd, leaving Junction:
Eng-AAA-aaa-ddd-DDD-Cab
At Junction No 203 sets out aaa-ddd and picks up BBB-CCC, leaving Junction:
Eng-bbb-BBB-CCC-ccc-Cab
By making a set out and pick up in the middle of the train, a railroad can have 2 blocks fall into place with one move. In your specific case this really doesn’t matter, except on the pick up. What matters there is what is the rest of the train blocked like. In most cases what is being picked up is a generic block of everything off the branch, maybe everything going in the same direction as the train (maybe not), that is carried to the next major yard to be switched. So depend on where that switch block is located in the train will determine where the manifest train pickes it up.
If its a train that does a lot of work over its run, maybe it sets out and picks up at 4 locations. Maybe it only sets out and picks up (on line) at your junction.&
The conductors I worked with would place those pickups behind the engine instead of pulling (say) 90-100 cars just to pace the setouts in front of the caboose.The first setout would be behind the engines.
But,wouldn’t your train become unworkable as you drop and pickup cars?
Absolutely! But,you can rearrange your train at a yard in a small city where you have room to work and having that room means less moves.
Remember there is no profit in moving cars you don’t need to. You would set the previous pickups on one track pull your train ahead to the last cars to be setout and place those cars you already picked up in front of your through cars and your train is workable again.
A long road local would do the same.
As a old line PRR conductor told me when I was a student brakeman:Son, plan your work and work your plan,don’t move cars you don’t need to and above all never get your cabin in front of your face.
Getting your cabin in front of your face means don’t make stupid moves…
A railroad would design the operating plan that has to be executed on a regular basis so that a train wouldn’t have to reswitch its train at an ad hoc location to fix a regular pick up. It would create a plan where once the train picks up it doesn’t have to double handle the cars.
Work done by a through freight is work being done on a schedule, typically off the main track. Its generally not helpful to have a through freight blocking the main reswitching and eating up time on the schedule.
In a previous life, every morning I had to explain through freight train delays to the district general manager and having to stop and reswitch a pick up was not an acceptable reason to delay a through freight.
That’s why we used a yard to reblock our train… We was clear of the main and had lots of room to do our work.
What is this freight schedule you speak of? When you have enough switching to do there is no schedule. In fact you will spend a lot of time in a siding waiting on clearance before you can do the required switching.
And never forget the number of safety and operation rules that must be followed and that will require extra time during those switching moves…
Real railroads have schedules for through freights (technically for every train, but that’s a different story). They say when the train is supposed to start, when its arrives and leaves intermediate points, what cars it carries, what connections it makes and may have other pertinent information.
As an example, here is an excerpt from a 1912 Philadelphia & Reading Railroad freight train schedule manual. The concept is over 100 years old. All railroads had them.
There are two trains shown. The “symbol” PN3 is what the railroad calls the train as far as the work to be done. This schedule is not the same as a timetable schedule, it conveys no authority to operate on the main track. It just tells everybody (primarily yardmasters and managers) what the train is supposed to do. The PN3 and PV1 both originate in Philadelphia (P) but one is out of Pt Richmond and the other Broad St. It includes the train size. The “character” is a general description. Then there is a schedule of when it is supposed to arrive and leave and what trains (if any) its is supposed to connect with.
The PV1 train is doing EXACTLY what the OP is asking about. Note in the character the train is traveling from Broad St. to Pottsville and setting out blocks of cars for several branches. I model the W&N branch. Note the train is setting out at Birdsboro and in Note 2 it saying that its carrying cars from the WNRR (my branch) that go to points north. That is EXACTLY the type of operation the question was about. Note also the train is allowed 10-20 minutes at each station to do set outs and pick ups. The railroad is not intending for trains to spend hours switching an
Dave,That was in 1912 and ETT time was needed for meets…
Today’s terminal dwell time can be up to 40 hours and all freight trains are ran as extras. Switching cars on the main is normal every day railroading. That’s how you serve industries along the main line.
What I replied was based on my 6 years with Chessie(C&O).
1912 was the earliest freight schedule book I 've seen, but they are still in use by railroads today, although computerized and not a paper volume. The modern schedules have all the same things the 1912 does plus many more details (block names, cut off times, power requirements, schedule details like fueling and crew change points, etc.) Often times a modern schedule is called a “transportation plan” or “t-plan”.
Being a regular train or an extra from an ETT perspective really has nothing to do with it. Most through freights do NOT switch industries, labor agreements assign industry work to local crews and are paid a different pay rate.
My comments are based on 37 years with the MP and UP, working with former WP, MKT, CNW, SP, SSW areas and coordinating operations with the BN/ATSF/BNSF, IC/ICG/CN, CSXT, NS and other roads. All railroads had these schedules, the modern ones with the more sophisticated computer systems had the more sophisticated t-plans. The SP and BNSF t-plans were more involved than the MKT t-plans.
Why would a railroad worry about a schedule or T-plan?
First, the yards need to know which train to put the cars on. Not every train goes to the same place, not every train works at the same location, not every train carries the same cars. The yards building the trains need to know the right trains to put the cars on and when to have the trains ready. The yard needs to build the trains right before they are going to depart. If the yard only has 4 departure tracks and build the trains that depart at 9pm, 10pm, 11pm and 1145pm at 6am in the morning, their yard will be full all day and they won’t have room to build the trains that run before 9pm.
The crews and the dispatcher needs to know what the train is going to do. Having the trains do the same thing every day means the crews and the dispatcher have better chance of doing things right more often. The train will be on the right track to do its work, the dispatcher may be able to get non-workers around workers, the crew will know what they are picking up.
Second is that real railroads have to worry about resources (crews, engines, cabooses/EOT’s). Through freight crews are based out of one terminal and run to another terminal, get their rest and come back. Typically that away from home terminal doesn’t have an extra board, so the dispatch office and crew callers need to know how many trains they will have coming to make sure they have enough crews at the terminals, particularly the away from home terminal. It takes 8-12 hours for a train to run from the home terminal to the away terminal, then 8-10 hours to rest the crew, so the people planning crews are working 16-22 hours out at the earliest. On the flip side the crews get penalty payments if they aren’t used within 16 hours of being rested at the away terminal, so the railroad can’t afford to hold them away for too long. And there is a fixed number of crews. If you keep too many at the away ter
Dave,I have went dead on the law before reaching my away or home terminal due to heavy switching and waiting on track time. I recall one time we made good time over the Cincinnati Div only to go dead at Limeville after waiting 4 hours for a inbound track at Russell to be cleared.
I heard on my scanner where NS crews went DOL at Marion,Ohio or even here in Bucyrus.
Sounds like you was in the office instead of train service… To much can go wrong on the road things like emergencies,long waits in sidings, delays at idustries while a trucker moves his truck or a forklift operator moves scrap pallets and other items that’s to close to the track for safe movement.
I think today all that is moved by a schedule is UPS trains and that’s only because UPS demands on time service. Let’s face the truth those UPS trains has rights over Amtrak trains and any other train. A local or a sweeper has little or no priority.
Other then that terminal dwell time can take up to 40 hours before a car continues it joureny. All of todays railroads is struggling with terminal dwell time and there is no exceptions.
Now add the mandatory rest and there may not be any rested crews available for several hours.
As far as being at your away terminal I have waited up to 16 hours before being called–there is no money(not sure about today) in riding a crew cab back to your home terminal.
I was railroading for one reason…It was not because of my love for trains nope not at all,it was the paycheck.
Just because the CSXT is poorly executing the plan doesn’t mean there isn’t a plan. Over my career there have been times when certain corridors have had over 100% recrew rate and there have been times when over a 380 mile crew run over some of the densest trafficed lines, over 95% of the crews made it within their hours of service, and most of those that didn’t had mechanical problems or were blocked by trains with mechanical problems.
Don’t have any idea what they are doing now, but that wasn’t the question, the question was about the 1940’s and railroading was very different from now. Having a train die on the hours of service was a relatively rare event back then. Crew districts were shorter, trains were shorter and work took less time. Back then crew costs were one of the largest parts of operating costs (5 and 6 man crews) so the railroads minimized crew costs. Today fuel is more than crew costs on many runs.
Dave,That is true but,you are overlooking the problems that faced the crews. Nothing has changed as far as over the road problems. Inferior trains waited on prioritory trains,water stops had to be made,in some areas helpers added and removed, road emergencies still happen.
Railroads still had to deal with terminal dwell times along with transfer times and choke points like Chicago,St.Louis,KC where it could take several days for cars to move around to their proper interchange.
Even in the 40s the railroads wasn’t the fastest mode of transportation because it could take a car weeks to get from point A on the NKP to point B on the U.P.
John Kneiling The Professional Inconoclast covered the issues of railroads in his column in Trains Magazine.
The problem is thinking today’s use of ‘schedule’ is the same as it was when there were time table schedules. Freight trains today have service schedules. Those that run daily or nearly so, will have planned times at the originating yard. For most tr
As I said in a previous post, ALL UP trains have a schedule (service schedule), even extras and trains in the “unscheduled” network (bulk trains). NO trains on the UP have a timetable schedule (haven’t existed on the UP after about 1985).
Maybe on the U.P but,I know without a doubt terminal dwell time speaks loudly on every train being schuedled.24- 40 hours is a long time for loaded freight cars to be standing still.
Jeff’s explaination of “service scheduling” makes sense.
Still there’s the Federal mandated crew rest laws that must be followed and I suspect the lack of rested crews might come into play even with “service scheduling”. .
There are actually four “schedules” for every train. There is the base schedule, the t-plan, then every individual train gets a copy of that base schedule for itself, then there is the “working” schedule that reflects what the train is actually doing. Comparing the train’s schedule to the working schedule indicates whether the train is ahead, on time or behind schedule. If the train is due out of Charlie at 315 pm and it departs at 250 pm its 25" AOT, if it departs at 315 pm its on time, if it departs at 345pm its 30" late. As delays and movements are reported, all the downline times in the working schedule are adjusted accordingly. If the train is delayed 20" at Charlie, then in the working schedule, all the downline arrivals and departures are adjusted by 30 minutes. If Jeff makes a good run and makes up 15" then all the times are advanced by 15".
Everytime Jeff gets paperwork for his train, there is a train summary (knicknamed a “BU”) on his paperwork that shows the working schedule of the train, how far ahead or behind it is, plus all the scheduled set outs and pickups, loads, empties, tons, feet at each location along the trip.
For an “unscheduled” train (coal , grain, ore, rock, ethanol, oil, etc). There is a base schedule, but it generically starts at midnig